Petition Asking Joe Republic to Declare and Debate John Ford

[12th Doctor]

Dear Mr. President

As a citizen of Atlasia, I believe that I have the right to know whether or not you plan to run for re-election.  If the answer is "yes", then I also believe that I have a right to a more informed choice, through having the opportunity to watch you debate John Ford.  The voters have a right to know who is the more capable, intellegent, dynamic and informed of the Presidential candidates.  If you do not wish to get your suit muddy by acctually running a campaign, then I hope you will understand that I will not only not vote for you, under any circumstances, but I will see your actions as a reflection of your sheer cowardness and will try to convince everyone I know to not vote for you under any circumstances, as well.

Signed

X Chris Supersoulty

[A18]

Shut up, you're annoying.

[The Dowager Mod]

This is not necessary.

[Ebowed]

Dear Mr. Former-Vice President

As a citizen of Atlasia, it is not your right to know who is running for what until they officially declare their intentions.  It is, however, someone else's right to declare their candidacy whenever they damn well please; that is, until the declaration of candidacy deadline, which happens to be two weeks away.  If you are unsure about this please consult the Constitution.

Now, as it turns out, someone should not have to announce that they are running for something until they have the time to begin a full-fledged campaign.  Indeed, the election is just under a month away, and you are certainly aware of how little attention the debate has received so far.  Here is one reason:  it is too far away from the election for anyone other than a few to care about the debates.

Therefore, I recommend that you focus your attention on your gubernatorial campaign, as the election for that is sooner than the presidential election.  Your petition is unnecessary and nothing more than a blatant attempt to "make waves," so to speak.

Signed,

X Ebowed

[PBrunsel]

Leaving Ilikeverin out of the debate will be met with protests. Our ticket is a major player in this race, we are just 10 votes behind John Ford in the latest poll!

But the President should announce his intentions.

[True Democrat]

X True Democrat

On a side note, I think a one on one debate would be great (we haven't had one for ages if ever)

[Ebowed]

On a side note, I think a one on one debate would be great (we haven't had one for ages if ever)

How would that be fair to the other candidates running?

[Emsworth]

On a side note, I think a one on one debate would be great (we haven't had one for ages if ever)

I would strongly object to the exclusion of other candidates from any debate, and I'm sure that others here would object as well. It would (in my opinion) be incredibly arrogant for two people to just crown themselves as the leading candidates and hold a debate just for themselves.

[The Duke]

Ebowed can get snippy if he wants, bu the reason no one cared about the debates is not because its too far out of the election.  Its because your boss didn't show up.

Second, we're all considering the implications of Ebowed intending to run and holding off on his announcemnt.  Sure, this reflects pretty badly on him, but there are two possibilities that may reflect worse on him.  One is that he isn't going to run and has decided not to tell anyone and the second is that he doesn't know if he's running at this late stage.  For varying reasons, these two possibilities are just as bad if not worse than the one we're already considering.

And PB, I'm happy to debate anyone anywhere anytime.  If ilv wants in, I'm happy to have him in.  I'm already in one formal debate with all the other declared candidates and ilv is in that, so in no way would I try to exclude verin and yourself or anyone else.

[Ebowed]

Ebowed can get snippy if he wants, bu the reason no one cared about the debates is not because its too far out of the election.  Its because your boss didn't show up.

There were a number of factors, the summary being that you held the debate far too early.

First of all, you insisted on having a debate so soon that it began while DanielX was away, which meant he showed up late.  Apparently the agreement between the candidates wasn't very well thought-out.  I don't know what the deal was with LiberalPA and Ilikeverin, but there was clearly some sort of lack of communication between the candidates, and this would have caused an uproar if it hadn't been the fact that the general public just didn't care.

[True Democrat]

On a side note, I think a one on one debate would be great (we haven't had one for ages if ever)

I would strongly object to the exclusion of other candidates from any debate, and I'm sure that others here would object as well. It would (in my opinion) be incredibly arrogant for two people to just crown themselves as the leading candidates and hold a debate just for themselves.

Or even a series of one on one debates between a variety of candidates.  I just think there's more substance to them.

[The Duke]

Here's what I think is going on, and I think Tweed came up with this idea because I don't the others are clever enough to do it.  I think Tweed came up with the debate strategy and based it on the following assumptions:

1. If Joe debates me, he'll lose.
2. People will vote in part based on the debate.
3. Joe has to debate at some point, since not doing so would look bad.
4. Therefore, a traditional debate could cost them the election.

So they had to devise a strategy that would allow them to debate without debating.  What they've decided to do is, actually, pretty devious I must admit.

They've put off announcing until the filing deadline, meaning that there will only be eight days of total campaign.  Unless the debate starts the minute Joe announces and goes through all of election weekend, there's hardly any time to go into any depth.  Then, you have verin, Jesus, Daniel, and SoS get in the debate, which slows down each round of debate because it will take six people much longer to answer each question that two people would take.  They turn the debate into a melee that will be over in the blink of an eye, and ensure that the debate never exposes their candidate to have to defend his record or his positions.

Actually, my hat is off.  It's a damn good strategy, whoever came up with it (And I have to assume it was Tweed).  Bravo.

[Ebowed]

Here's what I think is going on, and I think Tweed came up with this idea because I don't the others are clever enough to do it.  I think Tweed came up with the debate strategy and based it on the following assumptions:

1. If Joe debates me, he'll lose.
2. People will vote in part based on the debate.
3. Joe has to debate at some point, since not doing so would look bad.
4. Therefore, a traditional debate could cost them the election.

So they had to devise a strategy that would allow them to debate without debating.  What they've decided to do is, actually, pretty devious I must admit.

They've put off announcing until the filing deadline, meaning that there will only be eight days of total campaign.  Unless the debate starts the minute Joe announces and goes through all of election weekend, there's hardly any time to go into any depth.  Then, you have verin, Jesus, Daniel, and SoS get in the debate, which slows down each round of debate because it will take six people much longer to answer each question that two people would take.  They turn the debate into a melee that will be over in the blink of an eye, and ensure that the debate never exposes their candidate to have to defend his record or his positions.

Actually, my hat is off.  It's a damn good strategy, whoever came up with it (And I have to assume it was Tweed).  Bravo.

I'm going to have to quote that for posterity so that when it's clear that you were wrong, you won't have deleted it.

[Jake]

I would strongly object to the exclusion of other candidates from any debate, and I'm sure that others here would object as well. It would (in my opinion) be incredibly arrogant for two people to just crown themselves as the leading candidates and hold a debate just for themselves.

I see no reason why Ford and Joe could not debate each other in a one on one event. There is no denying that they are the two frontrunners in the race.

Anyway, Joe debating isn't going to change my vote. Simply the arrogant way he has carried himself for pretty much the entire time he's been here (though especially of late) is enough.

[The Duke]

I'm going to have to quote that for posterity so that when it's clear that you were wrong, you won't have deleted it.

So it wasn't Tweed?

Or are you not running at all?

And of course even if I am right, the fact that I've now said it certainly means you can't very well continue on that course if that was your course to begin with, so my saying that and you're doing something different doesn't prove much now that I've said something, does it?

I always wondered this about Back to the Future II.  Biff takes the Sports Almanac back to 1955, where he meets his younger self and tells him to become rich by gambling.  But when we see what the future is like with Biff a wealthy gambling tycoon, we see news headlines that proclaim Biff a great, world famous sports expert.  Wouldn't you think that news of a sports expert who never loses a bet in 50 years of gambling picking a team wouls sufficiently change that team's mentality that they're perfomrance would be altered, and they might not win?  Maybe I'm overthinking that movie.

[The Duke]

Anyway, the point iss you should decare your intentions and debate if you're running, and as long as you declare sooner rather than later, the more participants the better.

[Ebowed]

It's clear that you're just trying to find out when/if we'll announce, so there's no reason to answer all of your questions.  Although I will point you to the fact that Boss Tweed has had less-than-glamoring things to say about Joe Republic, so it's safe for you to assume that he's not related with the campaign at all.

And of course even if I am right, the fact that I've now said it certainly means you can't very well continue on that course if that was your course to begin with, so my saying that and you're doing something different doesn't prove much now that I've said something, does it?

Yes, yes, it's all a double edged sword.  Very tricky of you.  People who are 'in the know' will be able to confirm that announcing right at the deadline was never a plan, for what it's worth, but you're free to tell yourself differently.

Anyway, the point iss you should decare your intentions and debate if you're running, and as long as you declare sooner rather than later, the more participants the better.

All in good time.

[Akno21]

There is nothing wrong with having Joe debate John Ford separately, as long as there is another debate in which every candidate may participate. A one on one debate would be a lot more effective in terms of actually learning something from the debate, and Joe Republic and John Ford are the undisputed frontrunners. It may not be the nicest thing in the world to do, but it would be best for the voters.

[The Duke]

Tweed is pretty tight with you and has said he's backing Joe because he favors the advancement of your career.  The idea that Tweed does not have any connection to you is simply a non-starter.

[Ebowed]

Tweed is pretty tight with you and has said he's backing Joe because he favors the advancement of your career.  The idea that Tweed does not have any connection to you is simply a non-starter.

I'm well-aware of the quote you're referring to.  I even talked with Boss Tweed about it, and if I have his permission I'll post what he had to say; it wouldn't be very incriminating, to say the least.  Either way, so what if Tweed supports me?  He's not connected with the administration any more than the other people who have voted for us in the polls (except for those who are in the administration, which goes without saying), and you've jumped from "Tweed is plotting all of Joe's campaign strategy" to "Tweed is connected to Ebowed."  As far as I know, Tweed isn't even all that active in fantasy politics these days, after losing that senate race a month ago.  I've only seen him come in here and post a couple times and none of it was beneficial to Joe's administration.

[jokerman]

X Cosmo Kramer

[The Duke]

Tweed is pretty tight with you and has said he's backing Joe because he favors the advancement of your career.  The idea that Tweed does not have any connection to you is simply a non-starter.

I'm well-aware of the quote you're referring to.  I even talked with Boss Tweed about it, and if I have his permission I'll post what he had to say; it wouldn't be very incriminating, to say the least.  Either way, so what if Tweed supports me?  He's not connected with the administration any more than the other people who have voted for us in the polls (except for those who are in the administration, which goes without saying), and you've jumped from "Tweed is plotting all of Joe's campaign strategy" to "Tweed is connected to Ebowed."  As far as I know, Tweed isn't even all that active in fantasy politics these days, after losing that senate race a month ago.  I've only seen him come in here and post a couple times and none of it was beneficial to Joe's administration.

I'm not saying Tweed is running the campaign.  I'm saying I think you followed a very clever debate stratey and that Tweed probably came up with it, because he is the best strategic mind of all your supporters.  I count him as one of your supporters because he is connected to your personally and because he has publicly said he'll be backing Joe to advance your career.

It's really pretty straightforward.

And no, I don't expect there is a public post where Tweed lays this out point for point.  That would be sloppy, and as I said, Tweed is clever.

Even if Tweed is not the architect of your debate strategy, the point remains that the strategy you're pursuing is very clever and limits the amount of public debate that goes on.  Even if you announce tommorrow, and start debting from that point on, that still means you've greatly reduced the amount of debating you'd otherwise have to do.

It is kind of interesting though, that on the one hand you try to dismiss everything that's been said as way off base, then when it comes to specific quesitons, you play coy - which is exactly why these questions emerged in the first place.

[Ebowed]

I only play coy to certain questions.  I've been highly open regarding other issues - your accusations regarding Boss Tweed for example.  Everything you are saying is completely way off base, so there's no reason for me to pretend otherwise in the interest of coyness.

Now, it is interesting that you have used this thread as an avenue to vent your conspiracy theories, which was supposed to somehow be a rebuttal of my post regarding the presidential debates and why nobody cares about them (yet).  No, Boss Tweed has no official connection with the administration and/or campaign and any plans we have regarding the dates of potential candidacy announcements have nothing to do with delaying debate.  You are forgetting that the declaration of candidacy deadline is still two weeks away, and that other concerns have to be taken into consideration when running a campaign other than "Will I get to debate my opponents?"

[The Duke]

Okay, I'll take you're word for it that Boss Tweed is not involved.  Though its not entirely accurate to say you were candid about you and Tweed being close.  You said:

Although I will point you to the fact that Boss Tweed has had less-than-glamoring things to say about Joe Republic, so it's safe for you to assume that he's not related with the campaign at all.

So no, you weren't even close to candid.  You actually tried to pretend Tweed was not a supporter of yours.

Ford: This is a clever strategy.  I bet it was Tweed's idea.
Ebowed. That's crazy, who's this Boss Tweed, I've never even heard of him.
Ford:  Um, he  said he supports your ticket in public posts.
Ebowed. Oh that Boss Tweed!  Of course I know that guy, we go way back.  Now stop with your grassy knoll nonsense, I'm not hiding anything.

I'd hardly call it a conspiracy theory though, its perfectly reasonable that someone who admits they're hoping to further your career would give advice since running political machines is what he's mostly done here.  And its perfectly reasonable to state that Tweed is an exceptional strategist.  Hell, if he wasn't committed to your ticket I'd have hired him.

And its perfectly reasonable to say that delaying your announcement impairs the ability of the two candidates to debate because, well, it obvioulsy does or there wouldn't be a whole thread on it.

See its not a conspiracy theory to say that what you guys are doing makes it harder to do good debates, because it already has made it harder to do good debates.

[Ebowed]

How was this not candid? :

I'm well-aware of the quote you're referring to.  I even talked with Boss Tweed about it, and if I have his permission I'll post what he had to say; it wouldn't be very incriminating, to say the least.  Either way, so what if Tweed supports me?  He's not connected with the administration any more than the other people who have voted for us in the polls (except for those who are in the administration, which goes without saying), and you've jumped from "Tweed is plotting all of Joe's campaign strategy" to "Tweed is connected to Ebowed."  As far as I know, Tweed isn't even all that active in fantasy politics these days, after losing that senate race a month ago.  I've only seen him come in here and post a couple times and none of it was beneficial to Joe's administration.

I wasn't pretending Tweed is not a supporter, only that he doesn't have anything good to say about Joe Republic.  In other words, it doesn't make any sense for us to let someone who doesn't even like the top guy to strategize the campaign plans.

Re: your other points, just because there's a whole thread on something, that doesn't make it true.  As for what "[we] guys are doing," you don't really know what we are doing, do you?  After all, we haven't declared whether or not we're running yet.  Either way, making it harder for the rest of the candidates to debate is not our goal.  I think they've done a fine job of that on their own.