2020 New York Redistricting

[EastAnglianLefty]

It was done from 2003 to 2013, but it was pretty unreasonable then, as it jumped over the Tappan Zee rather than using the bridge.

[Torie]

It was done from 2003 to 2013, but it was pretty unreasonable then, as it jumped over the Tappan Zee rather than using the bridge.

The only reason that the current NY-17 is connected by the Mario Cuomo Bridge is me. Bye. 

[Mr.Phips]

It was done from 2003 to 2013, but it was pretty unreasonable then, as it jumped over the Tappan Zee rather than using the bridge.

And the map didn’t even look that ridiculous.  I would have taken it all the way up to Kiryas Joel.

[Torie]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed the Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed th Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

Peter: Hey Lois, did you hear about the fight between Hochul and the State Senate Democrats over the new appointment to the Chief Justice for the New York Court of Appeals? The Dems in the State Senate packed the Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor and It is threatening to upset budget negotiations!

Lois: Oh Peter, you know I don't pay attention to politics.

Peter: (Cutaway to Peter and Lois in bed)
Lois: (yawning) I'm tired, let's just go to sleep.

Peter: (excitedly) But Lois, this is the biggest political scandal since Watergate!

Lois: (sarcastically) Oh, well in that case, I'll definitely stay awake for it.

Peter: (Cutaway to Peter and Lois in bed, with Peter holding a flashlight under his chin)
Peter: And that's when Hochul said, "I'll see you in court, Senate Dems!"

Lois: (sarcastically) Oh, that's so thrilling, I can hardly contain myself.

Peter: (disappointed) Oh, come on Lois, it's a real nail-biter.

Lois: (yawning) I think I'll stick to my nail-biting thrillers, like counting sheep.

Peter: (deflated) Oh, okay. (Lights out)

(Cutaway to Peter in his sleep, with the sound of snoring and a sheep jumping over a fence in the background)

Peter: (in his sleep) And that's when Hochul said, "I'll see you in court, Senate Dems!"

(Fade to black)

Announcer: "Family Guy: Bringing you the most exciting political scandals, one snore at a time."

[Mr.Phips]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed th Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

With what Republicans have done to the SCOTUS and to state supreme courts in states like Florida, Dems simply have no choice but to do this with the courts where they can.  Otherwise, they will simply be finished off.

[kwabbit]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed th Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

With what Republicans have done to the SCOTUS and to state supreme courts in states like Florida, Dems simply have no choice but to do this with the courts where they can.  Otherwise, they will simply be finished off.

The Democrats could've won the House even while losing the popular vote. NY having a fair map isn't the end of democracy.

If you're not talking about redistricting and just politics as a whole, the Democrats have reaped electoral gains from the backlash to conservative courts. In any case, LaSalle would not finish any one off. He would not advance conservative judicial causes; he would just also not promote dishonest progressive judicial causes either. There's really no legal basis for NY's map to be overturned and LaSalle wouldn't support that, but he's not dangerous.

[ProgressiveModerate]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed th Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

This is partially why I rebumped this thread a bit. With the LaSalle nomination failing (and likely the nomination of any other moderate/conservative judge), the chances of Ds redrawing *and* the Ds redrawing the congressional map just went up a bunch.

Ig the main question I have about mid-decade redistricting is can Dems literally just pass a map with a supermajority during the middle of the year without bringing the commission map, cause ik the assembly lines are going to be redrawn via the commission through court order.

I hope Ds won't pass an obliteration like the so-called "Hochulamder" but if they do redistrict, create a favorable map that's still generally reasonable on the district-by-district level (as shown earlier in this thread). The possibility of putting Stefanik into a competitive seat probably have a lot of power, even if that means the Central Valley isn't optimizied.

[Torie]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed th Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

This is partially why I rebumped this thread a bit. With the LaSalle nomination failing (and likely the nomination of any other moderate/conservative judge), the chances of Ds redrawing *and* the Ds redrawing the congressional map just went up a bunch.

Ig the main question I have about mid-decade redistricting is can Dems literally just pass a map with a supermajority during the middle of the year without bringing the commission map, cause ik the assembly lines are going to be redrawn via the commission through court order.

I hope Ds won't pass an obliteration like the so-called "Hochulamder" but if they do redistrict, create a favorable map that's still generally reasonable on the district-by-district level (as shown earlier in this thread). The possibility of putting Stefanik into a competitive seat probably have a lot of power, even if that means the Central Valley isn't optimizied.

I think the Dems have a bare 2/3 majority in the State Senate, so they would need to hold Felder's vote to do a redraw.  I tend to doubt that if and when the Dems get a chief justice that they like, that judge will reverse the prior decision as wrongly decided. I also think that Hochul may just leave the seat vacant, which will certainly be the case if she litigates.

In the meantime, I think the IRC is just drawing the state assembly map.

[ProgressiveModerate]

I don't know if the subtext of this is related to redistricting, but the fight over who will be chief justice of the Court of Appeals in NYS has turned vicious. The Dems in the State Senate packed th Judiciary Committee with more progressive Dems, so that it is 13D-6R, and then killed the nomination of LaSalle, the moderate Hispanic, 10-9. The Dem Senate leader won't let it go to the floor. Hochul is threatening to sue to force it to the floor. It is threatening to upset budget negotiations.

Both SCOTUS and the high courts of the states are getting ever more politicized. It is beginning to remind me of what is going on in Israel. Folks are even bothering with trying to put lipstick on the pig anymore. They want partisan hacks, and they want them now.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/democrats-reject-hochuls-pick-hector-lasalle.html

This is partially why I rebumped this thread a bit. With the LaSalle nomination failing (and likely the nomination of any other moderate/conservative judge), the chances of Ds redrawing *and* the Ds redrawing the congressional map just went up a bunch.

Ig the main question I have about mid-decade redistricting is can Dems literally just pass a map with a supermajority during the middle of the year without bringing the commission map, cause ik the assembly lines are going to be redrawn via the commission through court order.

I hope Ds won't pass an obliteration like the so-called "Hochulamder" but if they do redistrict, create a favorable map that's still generally reasonable on the district-by-district level (as shown earlier in this thread). The possibility of putting Stefanik into a competitive seat probably have a lot of power, even if that means the Central Valley isn't optimizied.

I think the Dems have a bare 2/3 majority in the State Senate, so they would need to hold Felder's vote to do a redraw.  I tend to doubt that if and when the Dems get a chief justice that they like, that judge will reverse the prior decision as wrongly decided. I also think that Hochul may just leave the seat vacant, which will certainly be the case if she litigates.

In the meantime, I think the IRC is just drawing the state assembly map.

Felder usually seems like his vote can be bought off if Dems rlly have something they want to do. I almost wonder if the bigger potential problem is some random "moderate" Dem from upstate trying to "get back" at the progressives. I'm not sure if the willpower is there to redraw either.

As you say though, the court will still be a barrier, and it might not even have a liberal majority anytime soon depending upon what Hochul does. Ig Dems could actually try to use redistricting as leverage for Hochul to nominate a more liberal judge, as messed up as that is.

Also knowing NY, there might be some loophole for Ds to redraw without technically overruling the original court.

[Progressive Pessimist]

I endorse ProgressiveModerate's gerrymander. I really hope an influential New York Democrat somehow comes across this thread.

[ProgressiveModerate]

I endorse ProgressiveModerate's gerrymander. I really hope an influential New York Democrat somehow comes across this thread.

I was actually thinking about writing an email to NY-Dems. Does anyone know who would be the best State Senators/State Reps to write to for the matters of redistricting?

[ProgressiveModerate]

This is the other way to get a favorable Dem config in upstate NY, though for a variety of reasons, I think this is less likely and less desireable. On can do some shoring up around the margins here too.

[Sol]

I endorse ProgressiveModerate's gerrymander. I really hope an influential New York Democrat somehow comes across this thread.

I was actually thinking about writing an email to NY-Dems. Does anyone know who would be the best State Senators/State Reps to write to for the matters of redistricting?

Why would you do that? The current map is quite fair; the only actual issue with it is the absence of a Southern Brooklyn district which ofc benefits Dems and the weird shape of 24 which is basically partisanly neutral.

[ProgressiveModerate]

I endorse ProgressiveModerate's gerrymander. I really hope an influential New York Democrat somehow comes across this thread.

I was actually thinking about writing an email to NY-Dems. Does anyone know who would be the best State Senators/State Reps to write to for the matters of redistricting?

Why would you do that? The current map is quite fair; the only actual issue with it is the absence of a Southern Brooklyn district which ofc benefits Dems and the weird shape of 24 which is basically partisanly neutral.

Cause NC and maybe OH Rs are going to aggressively re-gerrrymander, creating a pretty strong R tilt nationally.

Ds need to counteract that where possible.

Until we get fair maps nationally, NY Dems have a duty to at least try, especially given how much more willing Ds have been willing to give up power in states they would've otherwised controlled.

[Mr.Phips]

I endorse ProgressiveModerate's gerrymander. I really hope an influential New York Democrat somehow comes across this thread.

I was actually thinking about writing an email to NY-Dems. Does anyone know who would be the best State Senators/State Reps to write to for the matters of redistricting?

Why would you do that? The current map is quite fair; the only actual issue with it is the absence of a Southern Brooklyn district which ofc benefits Dems and the weird shape of 24 which is basically partisanly neutral.

We should only have fair map in NY if we are also going to have them in FL, TX, OH, and NC.

[Sol]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

[ProgressiveModerate]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

I agree that gerrymander is terrible, and I oppose Democrats extreme legislative gerrymanders in places like Illinois.

However, at the Congressional level, each state contributes to a larger legislative body-the US House. Ultimately having national balance is more important than balance within any given state. My maps create a map that heavily favors Democrats without outright violating communities large enough to sustain a CD (the way Rs will almost certainly tri-Chop Greensboro for isntance).

NY Dems should try to draw the most lopsided map in their favor they can in NY without getting to the point of districts that just represent no coherent community (like TX-04, TX-10, or TX-35).

Believe me, I want fair maps nationally more than anyone, but having one side unilaterally disarm (the side pushing for reforms) while the other just gets to do whatever they want can't be allowed to happen.

If Rs gerrymander OH and NC while Ds do nothing in NY, Rs will have gotten to redraw lines in states worth 188 congressional districts compared to just 53 by Democrats. The median seat will likely be pushed to about 4 points to the right of the nation on 2020 Pres numbers

[S019]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

Democrats passing fair maps in states that they control while Republicans pass gerrymandered maps in those that they control leads to a Republican leaning map overall and a repeat of 2012-2016.

I endorse ProgressiveModerate's gerrymander. I really hope an influential New York Democrat somehow comes across this thread.

I was actually thinking about writing an email to NY-Dems. Does anyone know who would be the best State Senators/State Reps to write to for the matters of redistricting?

Maybe Andrea Stewart Cousins just by virtue of her being the floor leader and thus controlling what legislation gets to come to the floor.

[Sol]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

Democrats passing fair maps in states that they control while Republicans pass gerrymandered maps in those that they control leads to a Republican leaning map overall and a repeat of 2012-2016.

And then Democrats won in 2018?

In any case, Democrats should also push for fair maps in Republican states by lawsuits and initiatives. It's not like the alternative is helplessness. Democrats rightly lose all credibility on the issue when they advocate for disgusting gerrymanders rather than highly fair and respectable maps.

[ProgressiveModerate]

Maybe I should wait to see what happens in OH and NC, but if Republicans redraw both states to be aggressive gerrymanders, I plan on emailing State Sen/State Reps and argue that have a duty to create balance nationally by at least trying to redraw the NY Congressional map to be D-favorable.

One can draw a D-slanted map without going as far to be unreasonable or violate communities, the same FL's DeSantis map is basically what happens if you were trying to draw a fair map and made every tough decision in favor of Republicans. That's exactly what my map does.

First I need to figure out who'd be the right person to email though.

[Mr.Phips]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

Democrats passing fair maps in states that they control while Republicans pass gerrymandered maps in those that they control leads to a Republican leaning map overall and a repeat of 2012-2016.

And then Democrats won in 2018?

In any case, Democrats should also push for fair maps in Republican states by lawsuits and initiatives. It's not like the alternative is helplessness. Democrats rightly lose all credibility on the issue when they advocate for disgusting gerrymanders rather than highly fair and respectable maps.

Democrats won in 2018 partly because Republican gerrymanders in PA and FL were replaced with fair maps due to being overturned by state courts.  That is now impossible in FL due to DeSantis and Scott appointees now controlling the court.  Dems have no way of getting fair maps in NC or TX due to there being no citizen initiatives allowed and right wing state supreme courts.  Until these states get fair maps, Dems have no choice but to aggressively gerrymander where they can.

[ProgressiveModerate]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

Democrats passing fair maps in states that they control while Republicans pass gerrymandered maps in those that they control leads to a Republican leaning map overall and a repeat of 2012-2016.

And then Democrats won in 2018?

In any case, Democrats should also push for fair maps in Republican states by lawsuits and initiatives. It's not like the alternative is helplessness. Democrats rightly lose all credibility on the issue when they advocate for disgusting gerrymanders rather than highly fair and respectable maps.

Democrats won in 2018 because it was a landslide D+8 year, and by 2018 many gerrymanders had been undone by the courts or had begun to fail. A hypothetical D+8 year in 2012 might have resulted in an R majority which is insane.

The issue with these court challenges is a lot of state supreme courts are stacked with partisan hacks that are not going to undo gerrymanders, and there's not really a quick way for Ds to flip some of these state courts. SCOTUS has shown it does not want to get involved. So Ds gotta fight with what they got.

Balance nationally in this case is more important than taking the moral high road, cause if you take the moral high road you might become locked out of actually passing anti-gerrymandering legistlation.

The only major state that might be able to be fixed anytime soon is Ohio where an initiative could put a full commission on the ballot, but Republicans are willing to fight tooth and nail to try and block that, and given they have full control over the state, they might be successful.

[Roll Roons]

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

Yeah, when they manage to a lose a seat that Biden won by 15 points, that's indicative of a far deeper problem for NY Democrats that a gerrymander by itself would not be able to solve.

[Sol]

The whole argument for FPTP is that it represents specific communities, not political parties. Now, personally I support PR, but attempting to engineer maps for proportional representation doesn't actually do proportional representation well (over a decade it can actually do worse than fair maps) and mutilates communities. We're all better off the more that districts rep communities well.

Pretty disgusting perspective tbh.

Gerrymandering is always wrong with no exceptions. Democrats should try to actually win in New York rather than rig the game in their favor.

Democrats passing fair maps in states that they control while Republicans pass gerrymandered maps in those that they control leads to a Republican leaning map overall and a repeat of 2012-2016.

And then Democrats won in 2018?

In any case, Democrats should also push for fair maps in Republican states by lawsuits and initiatives. It's not like the alternative is helplessness. Democrats rightly lose all credibility on the issue when they advocate for disgusting gerrymanders rather than highly fair and respectable maps.

Democrats won in 2018 partly because Republican gerrymanders in PA and FL were replaced with fair maps due to being overturned by state courts.  That is now impossible in FL due to DeSantis and Scott appointees now controlling the court.  Dems have no way of getting fair maps in NC or TX due to there being no citizen initiatives allowed and right wing state supreme courts.  Until these states get fair maps, Dems have no choice but to aggressively gerrymander where they can.

Ok, you're just opposed to Democracy then.