HB 21-20: Breakout Act (Final Vote)

[Pericles]

SENATE BILL

Be it Enacted in Both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Breakout Act

SECTION 1.
Recognizing that human nature is to want to be free,

1. No additional penalty may be imposed for successful or attempted escape from an Atlasian federal or military prison, provided no human being is intentionally physically harmed during the attempt, with the following exceptions:
a. Prisoners may be fined for an amount not exceeding the cost to repair any part of a prison facility that was damaged during the escape attempt.
2. Crimes committed while an escaped prisoner is on the run may be prosecuted accordingly.

People's Regional Senate
Passed 5-0 in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

House of Representatives

Sponsor: razze
House Designation: HB 21-20

[Pericles]

This needs a sponsor.

[Pericles]

This needs a sponsor.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

I can sponsor this

[Pericles]

24 hours to object to Representative razze sponsoring this.

[Pericles]

Representative razze is recognized as the sponsor and is invited to speak on this bill.

[Pericles]

razze?

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Happy new year everyone! This bill will make it so that people are not punished for attempting to escape prison. They are already serving time for a crime they committed and once they are caught they will continue serving that time. If the break something, they pay for it. Seems pretty simple to me! Please support this bill when it comes to a vote. If you don't like it, feel free to propose an amendment and we can work something out.

[RC (a la Frémont)]

Jesus, where do I start with this bill. This is literally excusing criminals from their sentences because they broke the law to avoid the law.

1. No additional penalty may be imposed for successful or attempted escape from an Atlasian federal or military prison, provided no human being is intentionally physically harmed during the attempt, with the following exceptions:

First of all, I'm pretty firm in the belief that if a criminal is being insubordinate towards the law and law enforcement, then they should absolutely be additionally punished, ESPECIALLY if they're successful. Secondly, I have a big problem with the bill including military prisons. If we allow national security threats to walk away from our prisons somehow unpunished, what kind of example does that set to criminals? That we're pushovers and we allow dangerous people to leave any chance they get. There are many other solutions as opposed to this.

This bill will make it so that people are not punished for attempting to escape prison. They are already serving time for a crime they committed and once they are caught they will continue serving that time.

Yes, they are already serving time, maybe instead of wasting time, money, and resources trying to find them and recapture them, we can keep them there for the amount of time they should be serving. And hell, what if they're not recaptured? There is nothing a bill would do that would guarantee a potentially harmful criminal from being recaptured.

This bill is a disaster.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

[...] This bill is a disaster.

[Blair]

Yes  I've got a number of doubts about this bill because whilst I agree with the wider philosophical argument (no-one wants to be imprisoned) equally that is the whole point of imprisonment- nobody wants to be put in prison, and its purpose is a punishment. I support a wide range of prison reforms, and I know we've passed a lot before but I'm worried this bill might be a big step forward.

I also don't like the bold part in this section 'No additional penalty may be imposed for successful or attempted escape from an Atlasian federal or military prison, provided no human being is intentionally physically harmed during the attempt, with the following exceptions''

Surely this means hypothetically if I was in prison I could use a fellow prisoner, guard or visitor as a hostage to escape. Equally I could run someone over in a van trying to escape, and then not even be prosecuted for manslaughter.

It also poses the interesting question of what happens if you escape and your sentence runs out before you're re-captured. 

[Dr. MB]

Just gonna repost what I said in the senate thread.

Germany and Austria use this system and I think Atlasia should adopt it too. The natural desire for people is to be free and they shouldn't be punished beyond their already-given sentence for expressing this desire.

It's not a free pass: damage to the prison building which will almost inevitably occur can be put on the prisoners to pay for, and if they caught they will be brought back to serve our their sentence of course. But this is a good step toward greater criminal justice reform here in Atlasia.

Germany for reference isn't even in the top 10 countries for attempted escapes in Europe. Neither is Austria. The honor of number 1 goes to Finland - where, mind you, escape is illegal.

So there's no evidence that this would lead to higher escape rates.

[Dr. MB]

I also don't like the bold part in this section 'No additional penalty may be imposed for successful or attempted escape from an Atlasian federal or military prison, provided no human being is intentionally physically harmed during the attempt, with the following exceptions''

Surely this means hypothetically if I was in prison I could use a fellow prisoner, guard or visitor as a hostage to escape. Equally I could run someone over in a van trying to escape, and then not even be prosecuted for manslaughter.

Good points. I'd support an amendment to fix that.

[lfromnj]

No one wants to be poor. No need to punish theft anymore either.

[thumb21]

I'm leaning against.

Prison, in addition to punishment, serves the purpose of keeping criminals who are potentially dangerous away from the public and so escaping is not just against the law but also could be a danger to the public.

We know that any approach based solely on punishment and control, that doesn't attempt to understand what the root causes are and how they can be addressed is not going to be successful or humane; and it is perfectly natural that someone would want to escape from prison. So I understand the principle and am fairly open minded.

I'll have to do more research before I can commit to supporting or opposing this bill.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Thank you MB

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I'm not a fan of this bill. In addition to the already stated reasons, I am concerned that this bill would make the prison environment more unsafe for both the prisoners and the guards if a culture of attempting to break out of prison is established. We are not Europe. Atlasian prisons are well known to have lots of gang activity and dangerous behavior, and this would only make it worse.

[Former President tack50]

I think I am in support of this bill but this definitely needs amendments if it wants to be passed and I would be in favour of them.

Remember this only decriminalizes the escape itself. If found, they can still be sent back to prison and prosecuted for any extra crimes they made

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Remember this only decriminalizes the escape itself. If found, they can still be sent back to prison and prosecuted for any extra crimes they made

Thank you Sen. tack, I think this argument addresses the concerns that people have about this bill.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

This is the wrong way to approach criminal justice reform.

This logic leads to this.

No one wants to be poor. No need to punish theft anymore either.

[Pericles]

While I'm usually progressive on criminal justice issues, I'm skeptical of this.

I'll repeat what I said in Laborcord on this. I think escaping from prison is itself a harmful action, one that causes significant trouble for law enforcement and undermines the rule of law. I am pretty unconvinced by the 'everyone wants to be free' argument, some laws inevitably will be disliked by those who have to obey them but nonetheless are good for society. I am more open to the points that it doesn't lead to an increase in escape rates. However, it also seems intuitive to me that people would have more incentive to escape if there was no or less punishment. Are there any studies that control for just the factor of laws around escaping? And going back to my first point, even if there were no effect on escape rates I would still be open to having the punishment in place anyway. While criminal justice is a balancing act and currently in the irl US the balance is tilted too far in favor of punishment and against rehabilitation, punishment is still a valid factor. Of course, if the House does pass this it should be amended.

[fhtagn]

Given the responses to this, motion to table.

[Blair]

My reading of the federal law on this subject is that you can currently get a 5 year sentence for escaping; I'd be open to reducing this with very specific circumstances & tight rules- along with trying to fix the issues that other people identified.

Rather than tabling this I'm happy to amend & then move to a final vote where people can vote it down (and requires less votes to fail then it does to table iirc)

[Pericles]

So what is going on with this?

[RC (a la Frémont)]

I mean, if people want to suggest amendments, they better be pretty extensive, but I'm not seeing even the promise of an amendment so I'm encouraged to second the motion to table.