UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[CumbrianLefty]

Tbf certain MPs were widely rumoured to be about to walk had Corbyn got the whip back right away.

Asking him to do a bit more to justify his return perhaps isn't totally unreasonable.

Maybe the significant thing about recent events may yet turn out to be that the fevered fantasy of some on the Labour right and their client media - outright expulsion of JC being just a prelude to a mass purge of the left - was always a pipe dream. And a pretty dangerous one at that.

[NewYorkExpress]

Keir Starmer absolutely nails Boris Johnson on his devolution commentary.

Boris Johnson has denied fuelling the break up of the UK after reportedly saying devolution was a "disaster".

Sir Keir Starmer - who shares the PM's opposition to Scottish independence - seized on the alleged comments at Prime Minister's Questions.

"The single biggest threat to the future of the United Kingdom is the prime minister every time he opens his mouth," the Labour leader told MPs.

The PM is said to have made the remarks in a call with Tory MPs on Monday.

He told them devolution - setting up separate Parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - was "a disaster north of the border" and "Tony Blair's biggest mistake".

Sir Keir described devolution as "one of the proudest achievements of the last Labour government".

[Zinneke]

Starmer is obviously playing politics but as a lawyer (ok granted not a constitutional one) he needs to acknowledge that Devolution in the United Kingdom has been an institutional failure. Assymetrical federalism in general is bound to put salt in certain wounds and create discord. But Labour seem to trudge along with "that's just the way things are done around here". If Labour were to come out in support of a radical constitutional overhaul that includes an English parliament and Scottish and Northern Irish devolution being turned into symmetric, and equal, federalism, would that be such a bad idea?

[CumbrianLefty]

If an English parliament was a solution to this, it would already have happened.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Starmer is obviously playing politics but as a lawyer (ok granted not a constitutional one) he needs to acknowledge that Devolution in the United Kingdom has been an institutional failure. Assymetrical federalism in general is bound to put salt in certain wounds and create discord. But Labour seem to trudge along with "that's just the way things are done around here". If Labour were to come out in support of a radical constitutional overhaul that includes an English parliament and Scottish and Northern Irish devolution being turned into symmetric, and equal, federalism, would that be such a bad idea?

Yes, it would be a very bad idea.

[Zinneke]

Well Northern Ireland would yes - the point is that at the very least Northern Irish politicians would have a constitutional lock on their devolution, and in exchange they don't vote in Westminster affairs ( i know such mechanisms already exist in some cases by hey ho). Similar situation for Scotland - the fact that Jo Swinson played an active role in voting to tripling English students tuition fees while negotiating zero tuition fees for Scots is absolutely scandalous.

If an English parliament was a solution to this, it would already have happened.

I disagree, and I think Starmer in this respect incarnates a tone deafness of certain ENglish people towards what causes scottish nationalism. The perception of Westminster as a rotten, outdated institution that has turned into a circus is a massive reason why Scottish nationalism is at an all time high. And yet still you have the LOTO saying how great the system Blair built 2 decades ago is. Where have the progressives gone? Where have the Burkean conservatives as opposed to blow hard reactionaries even gone?

[EastAnglianLefty]

Well Northern Ireland would yes - the point is that at the very least Northern Irish politicians would have a constitutional lock on their devolution, and in exchange they don't vote in Westminster affairs ( i know such mechanisms already exist in some cases by hey ho). Similar situation for Scotland - the fact that Jo Swinson played an active role in voting to tripling English students tuition fees while negotiating zero tuition fees for Scots is absolutely scandalous.

This never happened. Tuition fees were abolished by the Scottish Parliament in a process Jo Swinson had nothing to do with.

And given that EVEL is already a thing, you seem to be tilting at windmills anyway.

[Zinneke]

Well Northern Ireland would yes - the point is that at the very least Northern Irish politicians would have a constitutional lock on their devolution, and in exchange they don't vote in Westminster affairs ( i know such mechanisms already exist in some cases by hey ho). Similar situation for Scotland - the fact that Jo Swinson played an active role in voting to tripling English students tuition fees while negotiating zero tuition fees for Scots is absolutely scandalous.

This never happened. Tuition fees were abolished by the Scottish Parliament in a process Jo Swinson had nothing to do with.

And given that EVEL is already a thing, you seem to be tilting at windmills anyway.

Swinson was a leading member of the Scottish Liberal Democratic Party. She eventually went on to lead the Liberal Democrats.

As I said I know mechanisms exist, but it only makes the Westminster system even more complicated than it already is. A similar issue exists in Spain : no surprise that a leading cause of peripheral nationalisms in both countries is alrgely due to distrust with the central government.

Assymetrical federalism is a mistake. Either confederalism, devo max or federalism. But Starmer coming out and saying the UK Devolution model is excellent is simply wrong, and many constitutionalists and political analysts agree.

[afleitch]

Not only is COVID testing the union, it's testing the whole concept of England. All that matters, has ever mattered since Thatcher is London as a cash cow/money pit and the Home Counties. It's deeply imbalanced.

[Gary JG]

The problem with an English Parliament, with comparable powers to the Scottish Parliament, is that it would leave the United Kingdom Parliament with little to do particularly about the issues voters and politicians care most about. All the UK Parliament would be left with are things like foreign affairs and defence; together with the unpopularity of raising taxes, largely to give to the politicians in the national Parliaments to spend (who will always be able to blame the mean UK Parliament and government for all difficulties).

The result of devolution to England is for the English First Minister to do to the UK Prime Minister what Boris Yeltsin did to President Gorbachev. The withdrawal of England from the devolution arrangements would very easily lead to the immediate and total collapse of the United Kingdom.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Well Northern Ireland would yes - the point is that at the very least Northern Irish politicians would have a constitutional lock on their devolution, and in exchange they don't vote in Westminster affairs ( i know such mechanisms already exist in some cases by hey ho). Similar situation for Scotland - the fact that Jo Swinson played an active role in voting to tripling English students tuition fees while negotiating zero tuition fees for Scots is absolutely scandalous.

This never happened. Tuition fees were abolished by the Scottish Parliament in a process Jo Swinson had nothing to do with.

And given that EVEL is already a thing, you seem to be tilting at windmills anyway.

Swinson was a leading member of the Scottish Liberal Democratic Party. She eventually went on to lead the Liberal Democrats.

When fees were abolished in Scotland, Jo Swinson was 21 years old. She wasn't a prominent figure at the time.

[Former President tack50]

For the English parliament haters, can't England be broken up and instead regional parliaments based odf the regions of England be made? Tony Blair actually tried that even if it was a miserable failure when it came to a referendum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum

That is what happened here and for all its flaws and headaches it has worked """fine""".

There is already even an example in England! Greater London, with its Assembly and mayor is still part of England after all. Just replicate that England wide in its 8 regions?

[Statilius the Epicurean]

The problem with an English Parliament, with comparable powers to the Scottish Parliament, is that it would leave the United Kingdom Parliament with little to do particularly about the issues voters and politicians care most about.

This is not a novel observation, and it's one of the fundamental fissures driving the union apart.

The United Kingdom could absorb the shock of Scottish nationalism; the whammy blow of English nationalism post-Brexit seems to have torn the union asunder. Covid has only poured oil on that.
 
I don't want to be partisan here but the only hope for unionism seems to be a Labour government in 2024 that is perceived across nations as listening to their concerns, since the Conservative Party is manifestly unable to at this moment. Even that may be too late.

[NewYorkExpress]

Boris Johnson stands by Home Secretary Priti Patel, despite accusations of bullying

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson refused to fire or censure his interior minister on Friday despite an investigator’s conclusion that she bullied members of her staff.

A report said Home Secretary Priti Patel had not met the standards required of a government minister, and concluded her behavior fit the definition of bullying.



Cabinet ministers found to have breached the ministerial code are generally expected to resign. But the government said the prime minister had “full confidence” in Patel and “considers this matter now closed.”

Johnson’s adviser on ministerial standards Alex Allan, who led the investigation into Patel, resigned instead, saying he could not continue in his job.

“I recognize that it is for the prime minister to make a judgment on whether actions by a minister amount to a breach of the ministerial code,” Allan said. “But I feel that it is right that I should now resign from my position as the Prime Minister’s independent adviser on the code.”

[cp]

The problem with an English Parliament, with comparable powers to the Scottish Parliament, is that it would leave the United Kingdom Parliament with little to do particularly about the issues voters and politicians care most about. All the UK Parliament would be left with are things like foreign affairs and defence; together with the unpopularity of raising taxes, largely to give to the politicians in the national Parliaments to spend (who will always be able to blame the mean UK Parliament and government for all difficulties).

The result of devolution to England is for the English First Minister to do to the UK Prime Minister what Boris Yeltsin did to President Gorbachev. The withdrawal of England from the devolution arrangements would very easily lead to the immediate and total collapse of the United Kingdom.

This put me in mind of an op-ed from last year that basically argued the idea of the British nation is only about 75 years old and that it's likely to perish fairly soon anyway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/opinion/brexit-scotland-northern-ireland.html

[CumbrianLefty]

For the English parliament haters, can't England be broken up and instead regional parliaments based odf the regions of England be made? Tony Blair actually tried that even if it was a miserable failure when it came to a referendum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum

That is what happened here and for all its flaws and headaches it has worked """fine""".

There is already even an example in England! Greater London, with its Assembly and mayor is still part of England after all. Just replicate that England wide in its 8 regions?

Problem is the lack of public demand for a regionalised England.  As seen in the 2004 NE devolution referendum (on which, btw, a certain D M Cummings cut his political teeth)

[Lord Halifax]

The problem with an English Parliament, with comparable powers to the Scottish Parliament, is that it would leave the United Kingdom Parliament with little to do particularly about the issues voters and politicians care most about. All the UK Parliament would be left with are things like foreign affairs and defence; together with the unpopularity of raising taxes, largely to give to the politicians in the national Parliaments to spend (who will always be able to blame the mean UK Parliament and government for all difficulties).

The result of devolution to England is for the English First Minister to do to the UK Prime Minister what Boris Yeltsin did to President Gorbachev. The withdrawal of England from the devolution arrangements would very easily lead to the immediate and total collapse of the United Kingdom.

Why would Westminster be in charge of raising taxes to the national parliaments? Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs could just service both the union government, the countries and the municipalities (one tax form, three types of taxes).

The natural solution would be a three tiered tax system with union taxes (raised by Westminster), national taxes (raised by the parliaments of England/Scotland/Wales/NI) and municipal taxes (raised by the municipalities). There would then need to be a subsidy to NI paid by the national taxes, and maybe one to Wales (at least temporarily).

[jaymichaud]

[CumbrianLefty]

Spending review today, arguably most notable thus far for the BBC's paid government stenographer Laura Kuenssberg disgracing herself maybe more than ever before.

[NewYorkExpress]

Scotland became the first country in the worfd to offer period products, like tampons for free yesterday.

Periods are a biological predisposition of being born a female, and the average female will spend more than 2,500 days, or roughly 7 years, of her life menstruating, but many women and girls around the world cannot afford period products. On Tuesday, Scotland became the first country to legislatively combat this issue by making menstrual products free in public facilities nationwide.


The Scottish Parliament confirmed in a tweet on Tuesday that the bill had passed unanimously. According to the parliament's website, the law requires the Scottish Government to set up a universal system so that anyone in need of period products can get them for free. Schools, colleges and universities will also be required to make free menstrual products available in restrooms. Local authorities and education providers will be responsible for ensuring free products are made available under the law.

There are roughly 1.57 million menstruating individuals in Scotland, according to the bill's associated financial memorandum. Based on that figure, it's estimated the new law will cost the Scottish government roughly £8.7 million in 2022/23, although the real cost will depend on how many individuals use the products made available. 

[Pericles]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/boris-johnson-defends-covid-tier-system-england-tory-backlash-grows

I hope I'm wrong, but if one in 80 people really have Covid right now in the UK and the daily death toll is in the mid hundreds, perhaps it's too early to relax restrictions? Hopefully they aren't just doing it because they set themselves a deadline of 2 December and don't want to lose face. Still, the tier restrictions seem pretty strict so maybe it can stop a third wave. Though is hundreds of daily deaths and a high stable level of cases really an ok outcome?

[Blair]

Spending review today, arguably most notable thus far for the BBC's paid government stenographer Laura Kuenssberg disgracing herself maybe more than ever before.

A reminder that she falsely claimed that a Labour activist had assaulted Tory staffers during the election; a story that saved the Conservatives from their worse day of press in the campaign.

That alone was a baffling & sackable offence; I'm not often one to join the whole 'the BBC is too right wing etc' brigade but she's absolutely useless & the only plausible defence for this 'well the country is like a credit card' comment is that she's dense enough to actually think it.

There's a chronic failure to understand or appreciate economics in British Politics (I say this as a history graduate!)

[CumbrianLefty]

Spending review today, arguably most notable thus far for the BBC's paid government stenographer Laura Kuenssberg disgracing herself maybe more than ever before.

A reminder that she falsely claimed that a Labour activist had assaulted Tory staffers during the election; a story that saved the Conservatives from their worse day of press in the campaign.

That alone was a baffling & sackable offence

She and her partner in crime Peston.

Even better than being sacked, they should have been made to name their "sources" for that lie.

[EastAnglianLefty]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/boris-johnson-defends-covid-tier-system-england-tory-backlash-grows

I hope I'm wrong, but if one in 80 people really have Covid right now in the UK and the daily death toll is in the mid hundreds, perhaps it's too early to relax restrictions? Hopefully they aren't just doing it because they set themselves a deadline of 2 December and don't want to lose face. Still, the tier restrictions seem pretty strict so maybe it can stop a third wave. Though is hundreds of daily deaths and a high stable level of cases really an ok outcome?

Restrictions aren't really being loosed in any meaningful sense. Less than 2% of the country is in tier 1, tier 2 is basically the old tier 3 and tier 3 is not very different from the lockdown restrictions.

[Blair]

This is basically a fudge A.) To allow us to transition to the Christmas Arrangements B.) Avoid splitting the tory party any further* C.) Trick MPs into doing what they're told.

*Of course we're only having a vote because the previous rebellion meant the Government agreed in september that MPs would get a vote every time there was a big national policy decision like this. Starmer & Labour are never going to join the anti-lockdown group on the Tory backbenches but they were happy to rebel over issues that can be described as about 'oversight'.

I'm getting a bit tired of seeing the Tory MPs who accept that we need restrictions but don't want restrictions near their seats while complaining about the impact on businesses while not really supporting a larger/smarter economic response.

I saw someone joke that if these MPs were councillors they're be wanting the tier system done by wards...