UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Pericles]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/19/utter-rubbish-theresa-may-incredulous-at-michael-goves-brexit-claims

Damn, I wish Theresa May was negotiating the future relationship with the EU rather than these incompetent idiots.

[brucejoel99]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/19/utter-rubbish-theresa-may-incredulous-at-michael-goves-brexit-claims

Damn, I wish Theresa May was negotiating the future relationship with the EU rather than these incompetent idiots.

Even for an avid Brexiteer, this shouldn't make sense. How is not having access to SIS data possibly better in anyway for security in the UK?

[Cassius]

What is the whole purpose of the European Union?

1. To provide a make-work programme and pension scheme for has-been and never-will-be politicians who failed/never made it at the national political level.
2. To give  an enormous (but largely false) ego-boost to ‘Europeans’ with small-man syndrome who feel threatened by the fact that the United States, China and, to a lesser extent, Russia, rule the roost in geopolitical terms.
3. To shuffle money more easily around the continent from richer to poorer countries, under the auspices of ‘convergence’ (lol).
4. To shuffle people more easily around the continent from poorer to richer countries, because having British (as was), German or Italian citizens pick fruit or clean toilets is morally wrong.
5. To enable the fulfilment of various national interests; countries with large (in the European context), inefficient agricultural sectors getting subsidies; traditionally poor countries laundering their creditworthiness via membership of the Eurozone; a comfort blanket for Germans who believe they’ll instantaneously march into the Sudetenland/Poland without some form of membership in an international body.

All the above reasons are laundered, to a greater or lesser degree, by vacuous appeals to factitious ‘European Values’ and the importance of the EU in maintaining them.

I mean, point by point:

1) I will give you this one. It is a shame that EU institutions often end up as a "retirement home" for have-been politicians. I wish things were different though.

2) Do you seriously deny the fact that, for most European countries, being inside the EU is a big positive to their foreign policy, buying them a ton of influence since they get the backing of a much larger bloc? Unless your name is France, Germany or the UK (I guess bias there ); your foreign policy will be a lot more effective as part of the EU than if you are alone.

Do you seriously think say, Latvia or Belgium would have any chance of "making it" in the world stage outside the EU? Most European countries are unable to compete with the power that countries like Russia or China have, if they act by themselves.

3) Convergence has been extremely effective at its goal though? Southern Europe managed to catch up quite a bit to Western Europe between the 80s and the 2000s; and nowadays it is Eastern Europe that has managed to catch up as well; with countries like the Czech Republic or Estonia not being far from the living standards of countries like Spain or Portugal.

4) I might be a bit biased here. I am actually somewhat against non-EU immigration; but EU immigration has been a huge positive for most countries? EU internal immigration provides most in not all of the positives of immigration with little to none of the negatives.

If anything the issue here would be "brain drain" from some of the less developed countries (I think this is a big issue in countries like Romania or Bulgaria?)

5) This is "international negotiations 101"?  Compromises, by their own nature mean some countries give up on some things in exchange for getting others. Overall the EU is undeniable a positive proposition for all members though.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek to be fair, but:

2) Why would Belgium or Latvia (or the UK for that matter) want to make it on the world stage. The world’s a scary place mun and I don’t particularly see the logic in smaller countries getting themselves dragged into greater power politics. I suppose in the case of Latvia you could fall back on the Russia threat, but that’s dealt with by membership of NATO (underpinned by a military superior to that of Russia, unlike the collective EU militaries). I think the ‘small-man syndrome’ point actually applies to the UK’s original reasons for membership more than anything else, given that we were desperate to find a new avenue to throw our weight around given the loss of our empire and the US government proving to be the treacherous backstabbers we should’ve always known them to be. Of course, once you’re in a big bloc, if you happen to be on the right side of the majority of (or the most powerful) members, then your international influence can be augmented, but it can also be constrained if you find yourself on the opposite side to the other members.

3) Making this point using convergence was pretty weak, but we’ve seen the results of EU monetary and fiscal policy in your own and other countries in recent years and it has a pretty bleak record. In addition, whilst some of the development in Southern and Eastern Europe is certainly attributable to EU money and markets, not all of it is. This again links back to a British perspective for joining - a lot of British politicians confused (either knowingly or not) correlation with causation when it came to making the case our membership by pointing out the healthy economies of the (then) EEC countries. Yes, France, Germany and Italy had seen more economic growth and faster increases in living standards than we had during the post-war period, but most of this was due to starting from a lower base and because of endogenous economic policies adopted by their respective governments. EU boosters like to insert the EU into every ‘good thing’ that has happened in Europe since 1945, but usually context is missing.

4) This is a pretty normative argument where we can agree to disagree. I think ‘hourglass’ immigration policies, where the most developed countries suck in all the young and qualified people from less developed countries, are pretty pernicious, both for the country that suffers from the brain drain and for the country that becomes reliant on a transient workforce and neglects to provide jobs and education for its own citizens.

5) This was fairly jokey and much of it was a reference to the below sitcom as CumbrianLeftie pointed out:

https://youtu.be/rvYuoWyk8iU

I do think there’s a good point to be made here, which is that EU partisans like to lie and say it’s all about promoting peace and democracy and fluffy bunnies and ‘European values’ and all the rest, but we don’t need an EU for any of that. We do need an EU so that failed politicians can get their snouts in the trough and arses in the air, and we need an EU so that small countries can play at being big countries, and we need an EU so that national politicians can spend copious amounts of time arguing over problems (the Euro, Schengen, EU budgetary contributions being funnelled to states that other EU countries don’t like) that wouldn’t exist if we didn’t have an EU in its present form.

[Estrella]

[...]
Why would Belgium or Latvia (or the UK for that matter) want to make it on the world stage. The world’s a scary place mun and I don’t particularly see the logic in smaller countries getting themselves dragged into greater power politics.
[...]
I do think there’s a good point to be made here, which is that EU partisans like to lie and say it’s all about promoting peace and democracy and fluffy bunnies and ‘European values’ and all the rest, but we don’t need an EU for any of that. We do need an EU so that failed politicians can get their snouts in the trough and arses in the air, and we need an EU so that small countries can play at being big countries, and we need an EU so that national politicians can spend copious amounts of time arguing over problems (the Euro, Schengen, EU budgetary contributions being funnelled to states that other EU countries don’t like) that wouldn’t exist if we didn’t have an EU in its present form.

This is the reason why Sir Humphrey would be a catastrophic politician; at a certain point, one crosses the cynicism event horizon and it's no longer about taking a realistic look at the world, but just denying reality for the sake of edgy hot takes about how ~nothing matters~.

[CumbrianLefty]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/19/utter-rubbish-theresa-may-incredulous-at-michael-goves-brexit-claims

Damn, I wish Theresa May was negotiating the future relationship with the EU rather than these incompetent idiots.

Hmmm, it is May's fateful decision in autumn 2016 (almost certainly under Tim Nickothy's baleful influence) to shut out the opposition and "remainers" in enacting Brexit that has led us to where we are today.

[Suburbia]

Why are people accusing the Tories of racism?

What did they do wrong?

1) How long have you got?

2) Where to even start??

(other more considered answers are available, and others here might provide them)

Not every rightwing party in the world should be accused of racism. Racism is on the left and the right. Yes, the Tories shouldn't have done what they did with the Enoch Powell speech, the Smethwick 1964 issue and the John Taylor racism in 1990, but a lot of Black Britons are Tories themselves.

There is still antisemitism on the Labor side. Old Labour took over the party since 2015.

[Blair]

Why are people accusing the Tories of racism?

What did they do wrong?

1) How long have you got?

2) Where to even start??

(other more considered answers are available, and others here might provide them)

Not every rightwing party in the world should be accused of racism. Racism is on the left and the right. Yes, the Tories shouldn't have done what they did with the Enoch Powell speech, the Smethwick 1964 issue and the John Taylor racism in 1990, but a lot of Black Britons are Tories themselves.

There is still antisemitism on the Labor side. Old Labour took over the party since 2015.

I'm being contrarian for the sake of it but Ted Heath sacked Powell for the speech & was actually quite strong in being against it irrc.

[Suburbia]

Why are people accusing the Tories of racism?

What did they do wrong?

1) How long have you got?

2) Where to even start??

(other more considered answers are available, and others here might provide them)

Not every rightwing party in the world should be accused of racism. Racism is on the left and the right. Yes, the Tories shouldn't have done what they did with the Enoch Powell speech, the Smethwick 1964 issue and the John Taylor racism in 1990, but a lot of Black Britons are Tories themselves.

There is still antisemitism on the Labor side. Old Labour took over the party since 2015.

I'm being contrarian for the sake of it but Ted Heath sacked Powell for the speech & was actually quite strong in being against it irrc.

But a lot of people think Powell's ideology is the current ideology of the Tories. It is not.

Not every rightwing party is racially biased.

Is there any rightwing party in Africa today that is racially biased?

[CumbrianLefty]

Why are people accusing the Tories of racism?

What did they do wrong?

1) How long have you got?

2) Where to even start??

(other more considered answers are available, and others here might provide them)

Not every rightwing party in the world should be accused of racism

You are critiquing a position that nobody on this thread has taken.

[Former President tack50]

Why are people accusing the Tories of racism?

What did they do wrong?

1) How long have you got?

2) Where to even start??

(other more considered answers are available, and others here might provide them)

Not every rightwing party in the world should be accused of racism

You are critiquing a position that nobody on this thread has taken.

I guess several pages in we will now need this, even if it is technically not a Bronz thread

[Blair]

Oh that's made my evening

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Some people are saying that this is a problem.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yesterday five Tory MPs voted with Labour over the free school meals business.

That might not seem like much (and indeed in a way it isn't) but since Cummings Johnson became PM actually voting with the other side on anything has become a pretty rare event.

(and the disquiet over this goes well beyond the few people in question)

[DaWN]

Difficult to see it as anything other than a catastrophic f!ck up to be honest. They can't pass this off as a remainer liberal elite problem or whatever, this looks a lot like 'f!ck you peasants' Tories are back, perhaps not the message Johnson wants to be sending to his new electoral coalition.

[Alcibiades]

The school meals issue does seem to be a rather odd hill for the Tories to choose to die on.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

The school meals issue does seem to be a rather odd hill for the Tories to choose to die on.

So does the "Let undercover cops murder people," bill, but that hasn't stopped them.

[DaWN]

I notice it has escaped discussion that the government have been trying to use TfL's financial problems as a tactic to get Shaun Bailey elected (by proposing ridiculous terms for a bailout they think will make Khan look bad). Good luck with that one lads.

[CumbrianLefty]

The school meals issue does seem to be a rather odd hill for the Tories to choose to die on.

So does the "Let undercover cops murder people," bill, but that hasn't stopped them.

That ties much better into their "PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE THIS HATE BRITAIN" talking point though.

[Blair]

Its quite interesting that the campaign appears to have really taken off today; I'm seeing it shared on facebook by relatively non political people.

[CumbrianLefty]

How many times is Ben Bradley going to willingly humiliate himself?

[Blair]

We've now reached the stage where the Conservatives are attacking cash strapped businesses for doing charity work. Absolutely baffling & petty.

https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1319941818025463810

How many times is Ben Bradley going to willingly humiliate himself?

The thing I find most depressing about it all is that it's an act.

He's an ex parliamentary bag carrier who went to a private school. He knows what he's doing. He isn't someone who just fell into a parliamentary seat.

His whole shtick about standing up for the forgotten people is just that; shtick.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, he thinks he knows what he's doing. Which isn't always quite the same thing. Big majority presently, but one of the most electoral unstable parts of England so this is extremely foolish behaviour. But, as you say, the sort of foolish behaviour that stems from a certain odious cynical arrogance, not naive idiocy.

[afleitch]

The 2019 Tories are trying to emulate The Discourse in the USA not only in how they attack but how they defend. They want to get to a point where no matter is resignable, the public are seen as too 'aggressive' towards politicians and everything is very online. They have four years to play about with it.

[CumbrianLefty]

That letter by 100 of their MPs the other day - claiming, with apparently total po-faced seriousness, that people are being rude to them on social media *because* Angela Rayner muttered a bad word under her breath - is certainly deliberate gaslighting on an almost industrial level.

It can't possibly work........surely?

[Blair]

That letter by 100 of their MPs the other day - claiming, with apparently total po-faced seriousness, that people are being rude to them on social media *because* Angela Rayner muttered a bad word under her breath - is certainly deliberate gaslighting on an almost industrial level.

It can't possibly work........surely?

I don't think so; the only people who take offence are people who already think Labour are the actual scum.

It's the same reason & way that the attacks on Boris Johnson over his refusal to condemn abuse of MPs didn't really move that many voters last year.

On a wider point it shows that the party as a whole are trying to be a lot more militant & outwardly aggresive; I can't even name the various party chairs under Theresa May because they were so passive but Amanda Milling has a tweet every day about 'Sir Keir' (forgetting it was her own government that knighted him) & there certainly seem to be upscaling that part of their operation- looking at the polling it's no surprise!