UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Its a particular sort of feminism that is susceptible to TERFism.

(basically the lifestyle based "what matters above all is getting women into prominent positions and actual structural inequality be damned" type - one well represented in the UK's political/media class)

I try to avoid following this particular debate in which Cherry has found herself embroiled, but this characterisation is simply not accurate given that Cherry is clearly well within the left-wing mainstream of her party on every issue except the transgender one (and made her career as a lawyer working on sex crimes, hardly the path that a lawyer unconcerned with social issues would try to carve out, and one that has probably helped shape her position on this particular issue, for good or ill).

Sadly, being well ensconced in left wing circles and ideology is no inoculation against TERFy beliefs, at least not in the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct in your supposition about her work as a lawyer working sexual assault cases being the genesis of her anti-trans views; it's a depressingly common backstory.

My perspective as an outsider is that the the explicitly confrontational historical approach of the UK women's rights movement is what has made the island particularly TERF'y when compared against similar countries. The confrontational approach is arguably why those with a history of Feminist activism like Cherry might be the most likely to also view it as a binary struggle between men and women.

US feminism had a huge struggle in the 90s over "intersectional" issues that UK feminism (being of a much more homogenous country) largely missed. "White feminism" is a swear word in the US that it's difficult to imagine being here.

The lack of a religious right in this country also paradoxically makes it much easier to be transphobic from the left, due to a relative absence of conservative gender politics in wider society. UK Feminists aren't as worried that they might be on the side of Ted Cruz.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is where we are at folks

https://twitter.com/lgbtqiacatfem/status/1356971438012567553

None of this will ever get reported as the joke it is. No journo will investigate the dark money funding this crap, the links with right wing US 'heritage' groups and the endless threats of lawsuits for anyone taking transphobia to task. Because they are all making money off of it.

There's a crisis in British feminism, with British cis women, just as dangerous and destructive as men falling down into the incel, alt-right etc pipeline over the past few years.

Ah yes, the Two Genders: "Apple" and "Summer Fruits"

(also, if one side has anime memes and the other has lame post-its, I know which side I'm on!)

[Estrella]

This is where we are at folks

https://twitter.com/lgbtqiacatfem/status/1356971438012567553

None of this will ever get reported as the joke it is. No journo will investigate the dark money funding this crap, the links with right wing US 'heritage' groups and the endless threats of lawsuits for anyone taking transphobia to task. Because they are all making money off of it.

There's a crisis in British feminism, with British cis women, just as dangerous and destructive as men falling down into the incel, alt-right etc pipeline over the past few years.

In Eastern Europe at least, the typical person you'd expect to hear the phrase "gender ideology" from is a red-faced nonce of a priest giving a particularly deranged sermon about anything from muh gays sexually abusing children to, yes, feminism.

That made up my mind on the subject of TERFs, by the way.

[Blair]

On that point it's hard to describe but there's certainly a tendency for people who think of themselves as being progressive to get their mind absolutely warped by what is fair to call propaganda; a lot of it is targeted at what I'd broadly call middle class mothers with outlandish & highly sexualised theories.

It really does rot the mind, and leads people to fall into language & descriptions that they'd recoil at using against either LGB people or people from other races.

It's weird how quickly & well organised the lobby has been- up until 2017 there was broadly a cross-party consensus around self ID but that's gone completely on both sides.

[Blair]

On flag-gate it has really annoyed a lot of people but it's nothing new in the sense that Labour have been using this branding for a few months & this feels like the exact same argument we had back in 2014 (Rochester by-election)

As a Labour supporter I'm more broadly worried about what our immigration position will end up being to appeal to these voters, rather than the actual branding.

Altough I am starting to feel like the Labour Party & the rows it enjoys having are going to mean we're not actually going to be in Government until 2034 at this rate.

[CumbrianLefty]

On flag-gate it has really annoyed a lot of people but it's nothing new in the sense that Labour have been using this branding for a few months & this feels like the exact same argument we had back in 2014 (Rochester by-election)

As a Labour supporter I'm more broadly worried about what our immigration position will end up being to appeal to these voters, rather than the actual branding.

Altough I am starting to feel like the Labour Party & the rows it enjoys having are going to mean we're not actually going to be in Government until 2034 at this rate.

That not how it works though, loads of people will be sick of the Tories even by 2024. No that isn't on its own enough to guarantee a Labour win - but I do also think many of the intra-Labour spats are passing most actual voters by (and post pandemic things may get less "online" at any rate)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

...but I do also think many of the intra-Labour spats are passing most actual voters by

...and what they notice might not make them think worse of the present leadership, bluntly. Political people have a habit of assuming that voters have a much more 'fixed' notion of what the parties 'are' than they actually do: the typical response to 'party leader does 'normal' thing, other people in the party gripe about this' is not 'that party is beyond hope lol' it is 'lmao he/she has pissed off the nutters'.

[Estrella]

On that point it's hard to describe but there's certainly a tendency for people who think of themselves as being progressive to get their mind absolutely warped by what is fair to call propaganda; a lot of it is targeted at what I'd broadly call middle class mothers with outlandish & highly sexualised theories.

Hot take: this is UK's version of American suburban wine moms getting into QAnon.

[Don Vito Corleone]

This also got me thinking again about Gordon Brown’s encounter with the “bigoted woman”. I view it as a truly tragic moment in British politics, not because of how it may or may not have affected that general election, but because cemented it being taboo to dismiss concerns about “mass immigration” as being scapegoating not grounded in economic reality.

Honestly my perception is that this moment has become much more important in hindsight (past few years) than it was considered at the time.

It's often forgotten that Rochdale was a Labour gain in 2010, so it didn't even have an impact locally. The mythologising of the incident really got going as part of the 2010 Labour leadership election, for reasons that in retrospect had little to do with national electoral politics.

Was this due to changing boundaries? Otherwise I'd be really curious as to how they picked up that seat in a year they were losing nearly 100 seats.

[Alcibiades]

This also got me thinking again about Gordon Brown’s encounter with the “bigoted woman”. I view it as a truly tragic moment in British politics, not because of how it may or may not have affected that general election, but because cemented it being taboo to dismiss concerns about “mass immigration” as being scapegoating not grounded in economic reality.

Honestly my perception is that this moment has become much more important in hindsight (past few years) than it was considered at the time.

It's often forgotten that Rochdale was a Labour gain in 2010, so it didn't even have an impact locally. The mythologising of the incident really got going as part of the 2010 Labour leadership election, for reasons that in retrospect had little to do with national electoral politics.

Was this due to changing boundaries? Otherwise I'd be really curious as to how they picked up that seat in a year they were losing nearly 100 seats.

Well they gained it from a Lib Dem who had only won by 400 votes in 2005, so it’s not hard to see why they might have won it, especially as the Lib Dems also lost seats in 2010 and their performances are often based on highly localised factors. The boundary changes did result in a notional Labour seat under 2005 numbers, but this wasn’t necessarily the be-all and end-all of it.

[Don Vito Corleone]

This also got me thinking again about Gordon Brown’s encounter with the “bigoted woman”. I view it as a truly tragic moment in British politics, not because of how it may or may not have affected that general election, but because cemented it being taboo to dismiss concerns about “mass immigration” as being scapegoating not grounded in economic reality.

Honestly my perception is that this moment has become much more important in hindsight (past few years) than it was considered at the time.

It's often forgotten that Rochdale was a Labour gain in 2010, so it didn't even have an impact locally. The mythologising of the incident really got going as part of the 2010 Labour leadership election, for reasons that in retrospect had little to do with national electoral politics.

Was this due to changing boundaries? Otherwise I'd be really curious as to how they picked up that seat in a year they were losing nearly 100 seats.

Well they gained it from a Lib Dem who had only won by 400 votes in 2005, so it’s not hard to see why they might have won it, especially as the Lib Dems also lost seats in 2010 and their performances are often based on highly localised factors. The boundary changes did result in a notional Labour seat under 2005 numbers, but this wasn’t necessarily the be-all and end-all of it.

Ah, makes sense.

[CumbrianLefty]

And back in 2010 Danczuk was seen as a fairly bog-standard Labourite. His "infamy" came later.

[cp]

Its a particular sort of feminism that is susceptible to TERFism.

(basically the lifestyle based "what matters above all is getting women into prominent positions and actual structural inequality be damned" type - one well represented in the UK's political/media class)

I try to avoid following this particular debate in which Cherry has found herself embroiled, but this characterisation is simply not accurate given that Cherry is clearly well within the left-wing mainstream of her party on every issue except the transgender one (and made her career as a lawyer working on sex crimes, hardly the path that a lawyer unconcerned with social issues would try to carve out, and one that has probably helped shape her position on this particular issue, for good or ill).

Sadly, being well ensconced in left wing circles and ideology is no inoculation against TERFy beliefs, at least not in the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct in your supposition about her work as a lawyer working sexual assault cases being the genesis of her anti-trans views; it's a depressingly common backstory.

My perspective as an outsider is that the the explicitly confrontational historical approach of the UK women's rights movement is what has made the island particularly TERF'y when compared against similar countries. The confrontational approach is arguably why those with a history of Feminist activism like Cherry might be the most likely to also view it as a binary struggle between men and women.

US feminism had a huge struggle in the 90s over "intersectional" issues that UK feminism (being of a much more homogenous country) largely missed. "White feminism" is a swear word in the US that it's difficult to imagine being here.

The lack of a religious right in this country also paradoxically makes it much easier to be transphobic from the left, due to a relative absence of conservative gender politics in wider society. UK Feminists aren't as worried that they might be on the side of Ted Cruz.

100% true. I'd add that the upswing in imperialist nostalgia and parochial nationalism of the past 15-20 years (both the Tory and New Labour strains) has equipped transphobes with an additional rhetorical weapon to resist the challenges proffered by the trans-inclusive/postcolonial/liberationist feminist movement.

On flag-gate it has really annoyed a lot of people but it's nothing new in the sense that Labour have been using this branding for a few months & this feels like the exact same argument we had back in 2014 (Rochester by-election)

As a Labour supporter I'm more broadly worried about what our immigration position will end up being to appeal to these voters, rather than the actual branding.

Altough I am starting to feel like the Labour Party & the rows it enjoys having are going to mean we're not actually going to be in Government until 2034 at this rate.

That not how it works though, loads of people will be sick of the Tories even by 2024. No that isn't on its own enough to guarantee a Labour win - but I do also think many of the intra-Labour spats are passing most actual voters by (and post pandemic things may get less "online" at any rate)

Loads of people were sick of the Tories in 2017 and 2019 - and Labour in 2005 for that matter - but that didn't prevent a win for the hated incumbent. You're right that the internecine battles that play out on Twitter are largely ignored by the public, but that's not why they matter. Labour's still not really found a workable coalition for its own party, never mind for a governing majority, and the scorched earth internal battles are an indication that a solution to this problem isn't anywhere close at hand - and all but impossible under the current leadership.

2034 may be optimistic.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yeah, yeah, but at the end of the day "oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them".

That's not an argument for complacency, but frankly any assertion that the Tories have not just a 5th election win sewn up but a 6th and even 7th is just too silly for words. Its not as if polling hasn't had any major changes in the last *2* years or anything.......

[cp]

Yeah, yeah, but at the end of the day "oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them".

That's not an argument for complacency, but frankly any assertion that the Tories have not just a 5th election win sewn up but a 6th and even 7th is just too silly for words. Its not as if polling hasn't had any major changes in the last *2* years or anything.......

If anything, that bolsters my argument. What government did more to set itself up for losing an election than the Tories in 2017 and 2019? They still won, largely because Labour's old(er) leadership was unwilling to offer even tacit endorsement to its successor. Divided oppositions always lose elections. Starmer's not shown any ability to heal Labour's divisions. Far from it!

[CumbrianLefty]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

[cp]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

No argument on that last point. Groupthink is one helluva drug, but Tory/Oxbridge/City/media groupthink is a whole other level.

Sadly, I'm not sure Brexit's alteration of the 'normal' political rules was a temporary feature. If anything, the fact that leaving the EU ended up being the prevailing position has instantiated its assumptions and political biases even further.

[Alcibiades]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

No argument on that last point. Groupthink is one helluva drug, but Tory/Oxbridge/City/media groupthink is a whole other level.

Sadly, I'm not sure Brexit's alteration of the 'normal' political rules was a temporary feature. If anything, the fact that leaving the EU ended up being the prevailing position has instantiated its assumptions and political biases even further.

I think this is a good point. Even though Brexit’s done and dusted (for the moment) Labour are still in a difficult spot. Talking about rejoining the EU is out of the question for the next few years, but Labour have an electorate that is fundamentally Remain-voting (in 2019, Labour Remainers outnumbered Labour Leavers 3 to 1), and has only got more so. Even in many of the Brexit-voting Northern working class seats, the majority of Labour voters clearly voted Remain. Labour need to tread a fine line between not dredging up an issue which most of the electorate wants to move on from, but also not being too positive about Brexit.

[cp]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

No argument on that last point. Groupthink is one helluva drug, but Tory/Oxbridge/City/media groupthink is a whole other level.

Sadly, I'm not sure Brexit's alteration of the 'normal' political rules was a temporary feature. If anything, the fact that leaving the EU ended up being the prevailing position has instantiated its assumptions and political biases even further.

I think this is a good point. Even though Brexit’s done and dusted (for the moment) Labour are still in a difficult spot. Talking about rejoining the EU is out of the question for the next few years, but Labour have an electorate that is fundamentally Remain-voting (in 2019, Labour Remainers outnumbered Labour Leavers 3 to 1), and has only got more so. Even in many of the Brexit-voting Northern working class seats, the majority of Labour voters clearly voted Remain. Labour need to tread a fine line between not dredging up an issue which most of the electorate wants to move on from, but also not being too positive about Brexit.

What's even more maddening (for Labour/Starmer, at least) is that the worse Brexit goes, the harder it'll become for Labour to articulate a coherent position on it.

A declining economy, constant diplomatic antagonism, and the shortsighted governance by the Tories required to cover both of them up will make it irresistible to denounce Brexit as the inciting cause - yet doing so will, as you rightly say, come off as dredging up the past so they can't say they'd solve it all by rejoining the EU.

I guess they'll be stuck saying they'd manage it better, or something, but that will get a frosty reception from the Labour pro-EU rank and file who will be ever more convinced that they were right all along.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Handforth Parish Council. Discuss.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

No argument on that last point. Groupthink is one helluva drug, but Tory/Oxbridge/City/media groupthink is a whole other level.

Sadly, I'm not sure Brexit's alteration of the 'normal' political rules was a temporary feature. If anything, the fact that leaving the EU ended up being the prevailing position has instantiated its assumptions and political biases even further.

I think this is a good point. Even though Brexit’s done and dusted (for the moment) Labour are still in a difficult spot. Talking about rejoining the EU is out of the question for the next few years, but Labour have an electorate that is fundamentally Remain-voting (in 2019, Labour Remainers outnumbered Labour Leavers 3 to 1), and has only got more so. Even in many of the Brexit-voting Northern working class seats, the majority of Labour voters clearly voted Remain. Labour need to tread a fine line between not dredging up an issue which most of the electorate wants to move on from, but also not being too positive about Brexit.

A majority of Remain voters supported Labour voting for the Brexit deal.

No-one who isn't on FBPE Twitter will be voting on Labour's position on Europe in 2024. Even the Lib Dems have backed away from wanting to rejoin.

[Alcibiades]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

No argument on that last point. Groupthink is one helluva drug, but Tory/Oxbridge/City/media groupthink is a whole other level.

Sadly, I'm not sure Brexit's alteration of the 'normal' political rules was a temporary feature. If anything, the fact that leaving the EU ended up being the prevailing position has instantiated its assumptions and political biases even further.

I think this is a good point. Even though Brexit’s done and dusted (for the moment) Labour are still in a difficult spot. Talking about rejoining the EU is out of the question for the next few years, but Labour have an electorate that is fundamentally Remain-voting (in 2019, Labour Remainers outnumbered Labour Leavers 3 to 1), and has only got more so. Even in many of the Brexit-voting Northern working class seats, the majority of Labour voters clearly voted Remain. Labour need to tread a fine line between not dredging up an issue which most of the electorate wants to move on from, but also not being too positive about Brexit.

A majority of Remain voters supported Labour voting for the Brexit deal.

No-one who isn't on FBPE Twitter will be voting on Labour's position on Europe in 2024. Even the Lib Dems have backed away from wanting to rejoin.

Of course Brexit will not be a major issue in 2024, and there is very little appetite for re-opening a discussion on Britain’s relationship with the EU. However, the Tories will inevitably frequently bring up what they see as the resounding successes of Brexit; Labour will have to respond carefully to this.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Brexit meaning "normal" political rules didn't apply was at least as significant tbh.

And the utterly uncritical, at times deranged, support of almost the entire media in 2019 especially.

No argument on that last point. Groupthink is one helluva drug, but Tory/Oxbridge/City/media groupthink is a whole other level.

Sadly, I'm not sure Brexit's alteration of the 'normal' political rules was a temporary feature. If anything, the fact that leaving the EU ended up being the prevailing position has instantiated its assumptions and political biases even further.

I think this is a good point. Even though Brexit’s done and dusted (for the moment) Labour are still in a difficult spot. Talking about rejoining the EU is out of the question for the next few years, but Labour have an electorate that is fundamentally Remain-voting (in 2019, Labour Remainers outnumbered Labour Leavers 3 to 1), and has only got more so. Even in many of the Brexit-voting Northern working class seats, the majority of Labour voters clearly voted Remain. Labour need to tread a fine line between not dredging up an issue which most of the electorate wants to move on from, but also not being too positive about Brexit.

A majority of Remain voters supported Labour voting for the Brexit deal.

No-one who isn't on FBPE Twitter will be voting on Labour's position on Europe in 2024. Even the Lib Dems have backed away from wanting to rejoin.

Of course Brexit will not be a major issue in 2024, and there is very little appetite for re-opening a discussion on Britain’s relationship with the EU. However, the Tories will inevitably frequently bring up what they see as the resounding successes of Brexit; Labour will have to respond carefully to this.

I think Starmer's team would absolutely love for the Tories to try and fight the last war on this. The more the Conservatives talk about an issue settled years ago the less they're talking about what they will do in government should they win and why you should vote for them.

[Blair]

FWIW I thought the actual backlash against Labour supporting the Brexit Deal wasn't as bad as I expected & it's not been something that has really caused voting changes beyond the type of people who buy the New European.

I know it's a relatively stupid lense but I've seen the evolution of brexit views in my own non-political social circle- the vast majority supported remain in 2016, were upset & dismayed about, grew more opposed over 17-19 and then a fair few non-political ones went to the PV march & even voted Lib Dem in the EU elections but none have cited Labours support for brexit or lack of enthusiasm for remain as a key issue.

It also helps that the Lib Dems aren't playing that card- on the note it does seem funny that they're now doing so badly that no-one seems to actually be talking about them. I honestly don't think I've seen any serious analysis of them other than when Ed Davey won & made some mildly lukewarm comments about rejoin which annoyed the FBPE cranks.

[cp]

FWIW I thought the actual backlash against Labour supporting the Brexit Deal wasn't as bad as I expected & it's not been something that has really caused voting changes beyond the type of people who buy the New European.

I know it's a relatively stupid lense but I've seen the evolution of brexit views in my own non-political social circle- the vast majority supported remain in 2016, were upset & dismayed about, grew more opposed over 17-19 and then a fair few non-political ones went to the PV march & even voted Lib Dem in the EU elections but none have cited Labours support for brexit or lack of enthusiasm for remain as a key issue.

It also helps that the Lib Dems aren't playing that card- on the note it does seem funny that they're now doing so badly that no-one seems to actually be talking about them. I honestly don't think I've seen any serious analysis of them other than when Ed Davey won & made some mildly lukewarm comments about rejoin which annoyed the FBPE cranks.

I think that's more a function of the politics of the moment being dominated by COVID. There's barely time to keep up with the outrage about Tory incompetence/malevolence on that file, never mind the gargantuan failings of their conduct of EU relations.

That said, even accounting for COVID, the pro-EU political movement is very much in eclipse right now. Not surprising, really, considering how devastating a loss 2019 was. That won't stay the same, though. There's a large and deep well of pro-EU (or, at any rate, not hostile) sentiment in the UK and it's only become more ingrained since 2016. That energy has to go somewhere. Eventually, that sentiment will recombine into something potent, and whether that's an ardent Rejoin movement or a reimagined 'soft' Brexit EEC/EFTA sort of proposal, Labour will have to do something about it.

Accepting the basic architecture of the Tory Brexit and subsequent souring of EU relations, offering only to tinker around the edges New Labour style, will be unacceptable for some (not just the FBPE types). More problematically, it would be demoralizing to many, many more - everyone from the hard left to Red Tories, pretty much - and lead to the sort of anemic turnout or decamping to third parties that hobbled Labour for much of the past 15 years.