Happy Lee-Jackson Day everyone!

[dazzleman]

Whether Lee believed in slavery or not was irrelevant.  He fought on the side that sought to preserve slavery.  That may not have been why he did it, but the effect is nonetheless the same.

[WalterMitty]

lincoln was by no means an abolitionist either.

[dazzleman]

lincoln was by no means an abolitionist either.

Lincoln was dedicated to the union first.  The point I'm trying to make is that Lee's actions, whatever his intentions, would have had the effect, if successful, of prolonging slavery, while Lincoln's actions, whatever the intention, had the effect of hastening the end of slavery.

So Lincoln was a functional abolitionist, while Lee was a functional booster of slavery.

[??????????]

lincoln was by no means an abolitionist either.

Lincoln was dedicated to the union first.  The point I'm trying to make is that Lee's actions, whatever his intentions, would have had the effect, if successful, of prolonging slavery, while Lincoln's actions, whatever the intention, had the effect of hastening the end of slavery.

So Lincoln was a functional abolitionist, while Lee was a functional booster of slavery.

Slavery was already doomed without the help of the war. Lincoln just caused the south to go into much more misery and reconstruction prolonged the misery.

[Ebowed]

Happy Sheila Jackson Lee Day everyone

[Emsworth]

Happy Sheila Jackson Lee Day everyone

What's funny is that her birthday was only four days ago.

[dazzleman]

lincoln was by no means an abolitionist either.

Lincoln was dedicated to the union first.  The point I'm trying to make is that Lee's actions, whatever his intentions, would have had the effect, if successful, of prolonging slavery, while Lincoln's actions, whatever the intention, had the effect of hastening the end of slavery.

So Lincoln was a functional abolitionist, while Lee was a functional booster of slavery.

Slavery was already doomed without the help of the war. Lincoln just caused the south to go into much more misery and reconstruction prolonged the misery.

The fact that slavery was doomed at the start of the war certainly wasn't clear to the secessionists at that time.  They fear it WOULD BE doomed if they remained in the union, and that's why they sought to leave.

[bgwah]

Wasn't Lee-Jackson day on Friday, anyway?

[John Dibble]

I figure I'll just put in a few quotes of the two people in question that I like:

Robert E. Lee

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword..."

"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained."

"Whiskey - I like it, I always did, and that is the reason I never use it."

"What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world."

"I have been up to see the [Confederate] Congress and they do not seem to be able to do anything except to eat peanuts and chew tobacco, while my army is starving."

"The war... was an unnecessary condition of affairs, and might have been avoided if forebearance and wisdom had been practiced on both sides."


Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson

"Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave."

"The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth."

[Alcon]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

[??????????]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

You couldn't ever be half the man Jackson was, even if you tried your damndest.

[12th Doctor]

Why then did Lee personally own slaves?

Lee didn't own a single slave.  His wife did.  Once again, don't let the facts get into your way.

Lee was going to free all of the families slaves after his wife died, anyway.

[Sam Spade]

Happy Sheila Jackson Lee Day everyone

That's the one holiday I can't even think of existing.

Do we get to remember her speeches in front of the House where she uses words that she doesn't know the meaning of?

[12th Doctor]

I must admit I find it strange that just the other day, you were quick to highlight the personal flaws of Martin Luther King, while completely glossing over his good points.  Here, you champion two treacherous failures, while completely ignoring their personal flaws.  A double standard, don't you think?

I wouldn't hold him to such a high standard, Joe. States is a friendly, personable individual but his opinions on these issues are grossly distorted and always will be grossly distorted. He just can't accept the fact that his "heros" were treacherous generals who were willing to betray their own country and cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of men to just to protect their right to enslave others.

Jackson and Lee didn't believe in slavery. But lets not let the facts stand in the way of your "beliefs".

Jackson and Lee fought to against their own country in a cause created to preserve slavery.

Lee was a documented owner of slaves across at least three decades, and owner of up to several dozen slaves for at least five years. When some of these tried to escape, he them whipped and their lacerated backs rubbed with brine.

Lees slaves were inherited, as I said earlier. For the second 'fact', source please?

See end:

http://fair-use.org/new-york-tribune/1859/06/19/letters/a-citizen

http://fair-use.org/new-york-tribune/1859/06/21/letters/some-facts-that-should-come-to-light

See middle:

http://fair-use.org/wesley-norris/testimony-of-wesley-norris

Even if his slaves were inherited, one cannot say he was opposed to slavery as he kept them rather than releasing them immediately.

So, we are supposed to take these three pieces of "evidence" as being the truth.  Perhaps you are unaware of this, but as for the first two pieces of "testimony", smearing people you didn't like through the paper was a very common way of getting back at them in the 18th and 19th century, as there was very little regard for jurnalistic integrity back then.  In fact, this kind of thing used to happen all of the time.  People would constantly write in to the paper with rumors, and rumors of rumors about people, and the papers would print them.

Anyway, Lee was solidly opposed to slavery from the begining.  You want to know who we know for a fact had absolutly no opposition to slavery?  William T. Sherman.

[Ebowed]

[Sam Spade]

I don't really need to see another picture of her in the flesh, Ebowed. 

I've met her plenty of time in person already in my life. 

[Alcon]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

You couldn't ever be half the man Jackson was, even if you tried your damndest.

That's true.  Jackson was a very fat man.

[12th Doctor]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

You couldn't ever be half the man Jackson was, even if you tried your damndest.

That's true.  Jackson was a very fat man.

I would strongly suggest that you either read the book or watch the History Channel special April: 1865.  I hate to sound like an asshole, but it would really give you some unbiased perspective on this whole thing that you obviously don't have.

[Alcon]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

You couldn't ever be half the man Jackson was, even if you tried your damndest.

That's true.  Jackson was a very fat man.

I would strongly suggest that you either read the book or watch the History Channel special April: 1865.  I hate to sound like an asshole, but it would really give you some unbiased perspective on this whole thing that you obviously don't have.

I have seen the special.  I know that he was not fat.  I'm just trying to get States' Irish up.

[Brandon H]

Images censored

I don't really need to see another picture of her in the flesh, Ebowed. 

I've met her plenty of time in person already in my life. 

Are you in her Congressional District? If so, move.

Robert E. Lee Day has been a state holiday in Alabama since 1901.
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060116/NEWS/601160312/1001

[12th Doctor]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

You couldn't ever be half the man Jackson was, even if you tried your damndest.

That's true.  Jackson was a very fat man.

I would strongly suggest that you either read the book or watch the History Channel special April: 1865.  I hate to sound like an asshole, but it would really give you some unbiased perspective on this whole thing that you obviously don't have.

I have seen the special.  I know that he was not fat.  I'm just trying to get States' Irish up.

I wasn't refereing to the fat comment.  I was refering to everthing else.

[MODU]

There's a Lee-Jackson Day? I guess they're about as worthy as Martin Luther King, then.

Yes, its a recognized holiday in the state of Virginia. They are far more worthy for a holidy then the poverty pimp.

You bet!  However, I think it Lee-Jackson day is actually observed on the Friday before Kings day lately.  But I still wish all a happy Lee-Jackson-King day. 

[Sam Spade]

Images censored

I don't really need to see another picture of her in the flesh, Ebowed. 

I've met her plenty of time in person already in my life. 

Are you in her Congressional District? If so, move.

Amusingly, I've never voted in her CD.  As of 2004, my registration is in Maryland (MD-7).

Before that I was always registered in my parents' CD from 1998-2003, CD-29, Gene Green's CD (a very competent Democrat).

However, all during my undergrad years I lived in her CD, as I attended Rice University.  I know Rice University's CD is Ken Bentsen's former CD, but I never lived on campus; I looked my residence up on the map myself.

But how I met her so many times is through any number of dinners, fundraisers, even a church picnic she decided to drop in on.    I couldn't get away from her.

[Alcon]

At least MLK was cohesive.  These idiots don't deserve a half-hour, let alone a day.

You couldn't ever be half the man Jackson was, even if you tried your damndest.

That's true.  Jackson was a very fat man.

I would strongly suggest that you either read the book or watch the History Channel special April: 1865.  I hate to sound like an asshole, but it would really give you some unbiased perspective on this whole thing that you obviously don't have.

I have seen the special.  I know that he was not fat.  I'm just trying to get States' Irish up.

I wasn't refereing to the fat comment.  I was refering to everthing else.

As far as I know, insulting them to get States' Irish up was the only other post I have ever made on the subject.

[Joe Republic]

Why then did Lee personally own slaves?

Lee didn't own a single slave.  His wife did.  Once again, don't let the facts get into your way.

Lee was going to free all of the families slaves after his wife died, anyway.

Being a man living in the 19th century, don't you think he would have had some sway over his wife over her ownership of slaves?  I mean, obviously he was such an opponent of it, so surely he must have something to her about it.