The Anti-Semitic Left Remains Alive and Well

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/14/opinion/college-israel-anti-semitism.html

[T'Chenka]

90%+ of "anti-semetic left wing news" is fake news (mis-characterization). Not saying this article is, but "strikes again" is misleading. Yes it is a real thing. No it is not an epidemic.

EDIT - okay maybe not 90%+, but a lot.

[JA]

Jewish people such as the author of the article are not being attacked by the Left for their Jewish identity, but because, as the author noted, "I now find myself pushed to the fringes of a movement I thought I was at the heart of, marginalized as someone suspicious at best and oppressive at worst. This is because I am a Zionist." It is Zionist political beliefs that lead to strained relations between many Jewish people and many on the Left; it is not because of their religious beliefs or ethnic background.

Allegations of anti-Semitism against the left are, largely (but not exclusively), nonsense, since the vitriol is aimed at Israel and its supporters, not just Jewish people in general. How absurd.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Jewish people such as the author of the article are not being attacked by the Left for their Jewish identity, but because, as the author noted, "I now find myself pushed to the fringes of a movement I thought I was at the heart of, marginalized as someone suspicious at best and oppressive at worst. This is because I am a Zionist." It is Zionist political beliefs that lead to strained relations between many Jewish people and many on the Left; it is not because of their religious beliefs or ethnic background.

Allegations of anti-Semitism against the left are, largely (but not exclusively), nonsense, since the vitriol is aimed at Israel and its supporters, not just Jewish people in general. How absurd.

This is the correct take.

To call oneself a Zionist is to be taking a stand on a political issue, which opens you up to fair criticism.  It is akin to identifying as pro-life or pro-choice, not to being a member of a religion or ethnic group.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Jewish people such as the author of the article are not being attacked by the Left for their Jewish identity, but because, as the author noted, "I now find myself pushed to the fringes of a movement I thought I was at the heart of, marginalized as someone suspicious at best and oppressive at worst. This is because I am a Zionist." It is Zionist political beliefs that lead to strained relations between many Jewish people and many on the Left; it is not because of their religious beliefs or ethnic background.

Allegations of anti-Semitism against the left are, largely (but not exclusively), nonsense, since the vitriol is aimed at Israel and its supporters, not just Jewish people in general. How absurd.

The idea the most of the vitriol is aimed at Israel rather than the Jewish people as a whole is what’s absurd.

[T'Chenka]

Jewish people such as the author of the article are not being attacked by the Left for their Jewish identity, but because, as the author noted, "I now find myself pushed to the fringes of a movement I thought I was at the heart of, marginalized as someone suspicious at best and oppressive at worst. This is because I am a Zionist." It is Zionist political beliefs that lead to strained relations between many Jewish people and many on the Left; it is not because of their religious beliefs or ethnic background.

Allegations of anti-Semitism against the left are, largely (but not exclusively), nonsense, since the vitriol is aimed at Israel and its supporters, not just Jewish people in general. How absurd.

The idea the most of the vitriol is aimed at Israel rather than the Jewish people as a whole is what’s absurd.

The evidence supports it though. So when you say it's "absurd", you're the one making a claim (accusation) that it seemingly at odds with the evidence. You might want to support your claim with some evidence if you expect others to agree with you.

[Devout Centrist]

There seems to be an increasing disconnect on all sides of this issue. On the left, the Israel-Palestine conflict (sometimes just, the conflict) is reduced to the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy, with little regard for the special circumstances behind the formation of the Jewish state or the right of Jewish people to live in that place. This in turn fuels anti-semitism (socialism of fools, etc.)

On the right, support for Israel is at an all time high, fueled by an unhealthy obsession with the Israeli security state, chauvinism, and at times, apocalyptic undertones about the struggle for Western Civilization. Some see Israel as bringing about the second coming of Christ(!). In a similar vein, the right remains heavily anti-semitic against Jewish people in their own countries (socialism of fools, etc.)

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

Similarly, he also recognizes that Israel isn't beyond criticism. He explains that,

The founding of Israel is understood by another people in the land of Palestine as the cause of their painful displacement. And just as Palestinians should recognize the just claims of Israeli Jews, supporters of Israel must understand why Palestinians view Israel’s creation as they do. Acknowledging these realities does not “delegitimize” Israel any more than acknowledging the sober facts of America’s own founding delegitimizes the United States. It is a necessary step of truth and reconciliation in order to address the inequalities that continue to exist in our respective societies.

I would recommend people read this Op-ed. It speaks to the author's concerns without ignoring the elephant in the room.

[BP🌹]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

[Devout Centrist]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

The 1948 war was an unfortunate case of the infant UN failing to control a situation before it spilled out of control. Regardless, Jewish people have a right to live in Israel and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the existence of a Jewish state predicated on self determination.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

Yes, and both were just wars.

[BP🌹]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

Yes, and both were just wars.

I'm not engaging with you on this issue. You seem to be one of those Christian Zionists who thinks the existence of Israel fulfills biblical prophecy.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

Yes, and both were just wars.

I'm not engaging with you on this issue. You seem to be one of those Christian Zionists who thinks the existence of Israel fulfills biblical prophecy.

That's not what I'm about.  My oldest friends from childhood are mostly Jewish.  I have long been sympathetic to Israel.  I would hold my current viewpoint if I were an atheist.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The Six-Day War is a classic example of a preemptive offensive. The war itself was a just war. The problems stem mainly from what Israel did later with the territory it occupied, not the war itself.

[Grassroots]

The compassionate right thinks that anything anti-Israel is anti-semetic.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

The occupation of post-67 territory is illegal under international law, which isn't the case for the borders settled in 48.

[Horus]

The Anti-Semitic left barely exists.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

The occupation of post-67 territory is illegal under international law, which isn't the case for the borders settled in 48.

Technically, since the end of 1948 war was an armistice and not a peace treaty, is there any difference under international law? Granted, those borders were generally accepted as the de facto borders between the State of Israel and its neighbors. However, the international law angle is vastly overblown IMO since international law is essentially a set of easily overridden precedents intended to ease disputes between states. A more significant reason to be against the settlements is that any feasible peaceful resolution will require two viable independent states that can be secure and sovereign within their own borders. I have no idea of how to get there, but the settlements will be a permanent block as they make a viable sovereign Arab Palestinian state impossible.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The Anti-Semitic left barely exists.

I mean, you would say that.

[BP🌹]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

The occupation of post-67 territory is illegal under international law, which isn't the case for the borders settled in 48.

Legal or not, the establishment of the State of Israel and the events surrounding it were a farce.

[BP🌹]

The Six-Day War is a classic example of a preemptive offensive. The war itself was a just war. The problems stem mainly from what Israel did later with the territory it occupied, not the war itself.

Why? Because a second Holocaust was imminent? Get real. The Israelis knew that they would win a war with the Arabs rather easily. Gen. Matituahu Peled, chief of logistical command during the war, said:

"The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war."

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

"They're not antisemitic, they're anti-Israel" doesn't hold water when that anti-Israel activism is expressed as hostility towards American Jews who support Israel, and when all Jews are expected to denounce Israel to be exempt from antisemitism.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Technically, since the end of 1948 war was an armistice and not a peace treaty, is there any difference under international law? Granted, those borders were generally accepted as the de facto borders between the State of Israel and its neighbors.

IIRC Israel has signed peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt and agreements with Lebanon where the Green Line is the international border of Israel proper. But I think this is mostly besides the point.

However, the international law angle is vastly overblown IMO since international law is essentially a set of easily overridden precedents intended to ease disputes between states.

That the law can be broken is no argument against its relevance. If Bosnia violates the Geneva Convention by killing a bunch of prisoners of war and gets away with it for a while, it's still important that the country has committed a war crime. If Germany invades and annexes Czechoslovakia with impunity, or likewise Russia with Crimea, it's not "overblown" that they've violated the law of nations by attacking a peaceful neighbour to seize territory. That violation is exactly why what they have done is wrong.

A more significant reason to be against the settlements is that any feasible peaceful resolution will require two viable independent states that can be secure and sovereign within their own borders. I have no idea of how to get there, but the settlements will be a permanent block as they make a viable sovereign Arab Palestinian state impossible.

This "more significant reason" is a dead end because Israel has no interest in peace with a viable sovereign Palestinian state. The entire purpose of the occupation is to make such a state impossible.

[T'Chenka]

"They're not antisemitic, they're anti-Israel" doesn't hold water when that anti-Israel activism is expressed as hostility towards American Jews who support Israel,

I think it holds water just fine, though in many cases (not all), "hostility" is a strong choice of words.

and when all Jews are expected to denounce Israel to be exempt from antisemitism.

Who expects that? I've never seen anybody make that argument. Either this is a conspiracy theory, or you are conversing with fringe radicals who don't represent the average anti-Netanyahu/Israel crowd.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I think Bernie Sanders has an excellent take on Israel. Firstly, he makes clear several things: He is proudly Jewish and he has a personal connection to Israel, having lived on a Kibbutz outside of Haifa in 1963.

I don't know why many "leftists" in the West think that the Six-Day War (Naksa) and the occupation of more territory was unjust, but the 1948 war (Nakba) and establishment of Israel was just. They're the same thing.

Yes, and both were just wars.

Thank you. I could see the argument against the Six-Day War (even though not engaging in it would've been suicidal for Israel), but the idea that the Jews should've just rolled over in 1948 and accepted possible genocide is absolutely absurd.

It's also absurd to see all the tiresome "the antisemitic left doesn't exist because it's just against Israel" here, but it's expected from certain posters at this point and there's not point arguing about it.

[Sir Mohamed]

Antisemitism is horrible and unacceptable, from the left and right. There is no distinction. Criticizing the policies of the Israeli govt, however, is not antisemitic and a distraction from actual points of discussion.