Moderate Labor Caucus?

[YE]

I don't see why your party should be immune from criticism just because it has finally turned on these poisonous elements at the last possible moment.

We haven't endorsed PiT in any elections since his Vice Presidency and at that time he was still pro-choice. Technically we didn't formally endorsed Fhtagn or Muaddib either, but even if we had Muaddib didn't say hardly anything in that chat except "Hi Doof" several times. You could make a case about Fhtagn her comments, which are problematic too, but the comments you mentioned specifically about women didn't come from her, they came from PiT.

Therefore to attribute his comments to us is completely unfair.

I have some big disagreements with Muaddib, like with the whole flag issue. But to his credit, his final action on the matter was an improvement of the original flag. He has been a great CoD Speaker and is one of the most active people in the game. If he had made the same comments as PiT I would not have endorsed him or voted for him.

As for Fhtagn, what coordination are you talking about? As she will tell you herself, nobody did jack crap for House until the election itself was underway. The votes she got, she got completely on her own, including her registered Federalist voters.

The problems didn't just start recently. It's hard to point to one thing in particular but it has seemed that the right in this game has resembled the RL GOP a bit, and I think the rise of the ACP has contributed to it. I don't dispute the GOTV bit at all given that the right wing GOTV was umm not the best and even if it was better, right wing GOTV is historically not anywhere near as centralized as the left's, but I do think the Feds haven't done enough to change that notion by finding a way to counter the ACP. Not to mention we've seen people like S019 and ASV leave the Feds after both being despised by the current ACP chair.

To many of us in Labor/Pax, seeing some on the right on the AFE board in recent days go like "Oh sh**t, we just lost an election 2/1 and portions of our side just might be too crazy" just feels overdue because we've observed it coming for a bit. Though to be fair, I don't know what goes on in private.

Again, you guys live in this world where stereotypes are ok. Idk what gives you the privilege to group everyone as the same but you need to grow up and stop playing games.

Even if we did gotv better, you guys would make up continuous lies as usual. We dont work with acp when it comes to house slates. If we did, you wouldnt have feds preffing the candidates they did in certain orders.


S019 and ASV left because they were cancer. ASV was an asshat who couldnt keep his mouth shut and constantly attacked people. Hes much more similar to you guys in this department. S019 never fit on the right and it's clear his transformation was nothing more than him revealing who he truly was. His positions werent right winged and he constantly tried to purge the party of people who werent moderate. Hes only succeeding in labor is more than likely because labor tells him to shut up.

Excuse me.

I really don't know what you're on about regarding stereotypes or "privilege" to group everyone as the same. What games are we playing? Is having a belief (with some reasoning attached above) about the coordination between two parties a game or a sterotype? And what lies? You seem rather salty rather than trying to have good faith dialogue, to be blunt.

As for the issues at hand, I'll try to address them. The Feds being bad at GOTV bit was a reply to the argument that fhtagn got herself elected and that there was no coordination between the two sides. That may be true but my point was that it doesn't disapprove the idea (now to be fair, others have used other examples to try to rebut this) since with such bad GOTV, coordination in general is presumably lacking in general. As for ASV and S019, I don't agree with them on everything obviously but I do think (maybe not S019 anymore but a few months ago, yes) in a balanced two party system considering the historical political leanings of Atlas, they'd tilt towards the right wing party, at least as a zombie.

[Saint Milei]

I don't see why your party should be immune from criticism just because it has finally turned on these poisonous elements at the last possible moment.

We haven't endorsed PiT in any elections since his Vice Presidency and at that time he was still pro-choice. Technically we didn't formally endorsed Fhtagn or Muaddib either, but even if we had Muaddib didn't say hardly anything in that chat except "Hi Doof" several times. You could make a case about Fhtagn her comments, which are problematic too, but the comments you mentioned specifically about women didn't come from her, they came from PiT.

Therefore to attribute his comments to us is completely unfair.

I have some big disagreements with Muaddib, like with the whole flag issue. But to his credit, his final action on the matter was an improvement of the original flag. He has been a great CoD Speaker and is one of the most active people in the game. If he had made the same comments as PiT I would not have endorsed him or voted for him.

As for Fhtagn, what coordination are you talking about? As she will tell you herself, nobody did jack crap for House until the election itself was underway. The votes she got, she got completely on her own, including her registered Federalist voters.

The problems didn't just start recently. It's hard to point to one thing in particular but it has seemed that the right in this game has resembled the RL GOP a bit, and I think the rise of the ACP has contributed to it. I don't dispute the GOTV bit at all given that the right wing GOTV was umm not the best and even if it was better, right wing GOTV is historically not anywhere near as centralized as the left's, but I do think the Feds haven't done enough to change that notion by finding a way to counter the ACP. Not to mention we've seen people like S019 and ASV leave the Feds after both being despised by the current ACP chair.

To many of us in Labor/Pax, seeing some on the right on the AFE board in recent days go like "Oh sh**t, we just lost an election 2/1 and portions of our side just might be too crazy" just feels overdue because we've observed it coming for a bit. Though to be fair, I don't know what goes on in private.

Again, you guys live in this world where stereotypes are ok. Idk what gives you the privilege to group everyone as the same but you need to grow up and stop playing games.

Even if we did gotv better, you guys would make up continuous lies as usual. We dont work with acp when it comes to house slates. If we did, you wouldnt have feds preffing the candidates they did in certain orders.


S019 and ASV left because they were cancer. ASV was an asshat who couldnt keep his mouth shut and constantly attacked people. Hes much more similar to you guys in this department. S019 never fit on the right and it's clear his transformation was nothing more than him revealing who he truly was. His positions werent right winged and he constantly tried to purge the party of people who werent moderate. Hes only succeeding in labor is more than likely because labor tells him to shut up.

Excuse me.

I really don't know what you're on about regarding stereotypes or "privilege" to group everyone as the same. What games are we playing? Is having a belief (with some reasoning attached above) about the coordination between two parties a game or a sterotype? And what lies? You seem rather salty rather than trying to have good faith dialogue, to be blunt.

As for the issues at hand, I'll try to address them. The Feds being bad at GOTV bit was a reply to the argument that fhtagn got herself elected and that there was no coordination between the two sides. That may be true but my point was that it doesn't disapprove the idea (now to be fair, others have used other examples to try to rebut this) since with such bad GOTV, coordination in general is presumably lacking in general. As for ASV and S019, I don't agree with them on everything obviously but I do think (maybe not S019 anymore but a few months ago, yes) in a balanced two party system considering the historical political leanings of Atlas, they'd tilt towards the right wing party, at least as a zombie.

You guys associate a few right-wingers you have issues with as being a representation of the right overall. That's stereotyping. Good faith dialogue is impossible in an ultra-partisan setting.


There's nothing to suggest we work with ACP when it comes to house slates. Fhtagn automatically gets a seat because ACP backs her. It's up to ACP's discretion who they preference after that. The same way it's up to our preference as feds. Everyone picks who they want regardless of the results. This is clearly obvious. Muaddib got like 18 votes when he needed nowhere near that amount for COD. People continue to pref fhtagn 2nd even though we know she's guaranteed a seat due to ACP's voting bloc. You believe what you want to in order to justify a different worldview of the right. Stop it

[Vern]

Let us be real people. ACP works with Feds to win seats just like Peace works with Labor to win seats. If you say different, you are just lying.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Let us be real people. ACP works with Feds to win seats just like Peace works with Labor to win seats. If you say different, you are just lying.

You seem to be suffering from the same problem of shifting language to a more general sense to a create a knowingly true statement, to try an catch us in a lie, which was never said.

Of course ACP and Feds "have worked together" in "certain" races. That wasn't said otherwise, at least certainly not by me.

The whole conversation was response to Truman, "if ACP was totally independent, we would run competing slates and not coordinate for House". The problem with this as I pointed out was that 1. Fhtagn is going to run and she has nearly the whole quota from her own party and also a couple of Feds that are favorable towards her. 2. We have struggled to fill our slates and even my attempts to get October's going in August met with uncertainty as other races appealed to various candidates and finally they conceded to running in multiple elections to fill the gaps. Hardly a recipe for a full slate.

I also said there was no coordination for house in October. At the same time I acknowledged supporting Muaddib because 1. He had a good platform, 2. worked out a reasonable compromise to fix the original flag after that fiasco and 3. was a solid CoD speaker.

However if you read my first post, I said, "where our interest align and our values are not surrendered, we will work together, which was before the response from Truman and this whole nonsense in this thread started.

Finally the whole context of this conversation was whether or not we had standing to criticize's PiT's comments, which I also pointed out he has not been supported by us since before his political evolution to the right.

Now pray tell me where the lies are in my statements Vern?

Frankly, this whole escapade started in this thread because Truman just couldn't let my post lie and had to pick it apart to try and nail us to ACP and PiT's as then yet unexplained/horrifically worded comments.

I am sick and tired of getting picked cleaned by a pack of piranhas left, right and center in this game.  I am also tired of always being felt like I am being put on trial and having to prove myself to people, it is the part of this game that I hate the most and it is one thing that is most likely to make me say screw it one day.

[Yellowhammer]

I would be interested in joining the Moderate Labor Caucus.

[Saint Milei]

Let us be real people. ACP works with Feds to win seats just like Peace works with Labor to win seats. If you say different, you are just lying.

if this is the case then why are you guys unable to respond to our comments in this thread refuting this.

[Vern]

Let us be real people. ACP works with Feds to win seats just like Peace works with Labor to win seats. If you say different, you are just lying.

if this is the case then why are you guys unable to respond to our comments in this thread refuting this.

I am not really part of any "you guys." I am just saying what I see.

[YE]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds (which has been rebutted by many in here and tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

I never said that, YE. I said there was no coordination for HOUSE in October and also said we supported Muaddib.

You are factually misrepresenting my statements and that is part of why people are getting freaky.

[YE]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds (which has been rebutted by many in here and tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

I never said that, YE. I said there was no coordination for HOUSE in October and also said we supported Muaddib.

You are factually misrepresenting my statements and that is part of why people are getting freaky.

Fair, I should have cleared up the last bit regarding the alleged period of no coordination. I stand corrected otherwise.

[Adam Griffin]

Personally, my simplistic view is that caucuses are a net negative for political parties, as they can ultimately transform into otherwise unnatural fault lines that weaken or ultimately tear asunder broad-based political movements (whether that be by the members themselves or the machinations of outsiders).

Even when Labor was at its purest ideologically, we were almost never in the position to pass legislation or implement various strategies without the consent of multiple ideological and/or intra-partisan factions (regionally or federally). There has always been a give-and-take dynamic at play in our tent: moderates give in to leftists and leftists give in to moderates at various points and depending on the exact legislation, issue or strategy. You could say there's something akin to an uncounted "credit system" at work as to who gets a credit or who pays a credit at a given time, with everything balancing out in the long term.

Ultimately and if there is even a small amount of support for one or more viewpoints or policies within the Party, attention is given to those concerns and beliefs because it is necessary to maintain cohesion. However, we don't really need additional, formal in-house apparatuses to ensure such operations when we are the most organized movement in the game as-is and do very well at catering to a variety of constituencies already.

[Former President tack50]

Let's be honest, both Labor/Peace and Feds/ACP have worked as a single party for the purposes of electing people. The fact that the Fed/ACP cooperation is less effective for a large variety of reasons does not mean that they aren't working together.

In fact I will go further and say that almost all "centrist" candidates have also worked with one of Labor or the Feds in my entire time in the game. Ninja got elected in December off the back of Labor votes (mostly 2nd preferences) who wanted to deny the Feds a 4th seat. 2 months later Ninja got elected off the fact that he was part of the official Fed slate (Feds only ran 4 candidates then). In April, while Spark lost, it was clear he was also part of the Fed slate, much like Ninja. June saw no major third parties.

The only person who can pride themselves on being elected while opposing both parties is Poirot in August, who got elected off a weird coalition of dissaffected people both in the right and the left, with tmth running his campaign I think. But Poirot is the exception, not the rule.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Ninja got elected in December off the back of Labor votes

Ninja was part of the Federalist slate in December. All fed voters preffed him and he was pushed equally with all other candidates. Then at the very end Labor saw an opportunity to reduce the Feds to only 3 house seats and took it, and gave a few strategic votes to Ninja.

[Former President tack50]

Ninja got elected in December off the back of Labor votes

Ninja was part of the Federalist slate in December. All fed voters preffed him and he was pushed equally with all other candidates. Then at the very end Labor saw an opportunity to reduce the Feds to only 3 house seats and took it, and gave a few strategic votes to Ninja.

Uh, no he wasn't? (unless Feds were foolishly going for 6-3 in December, which I seriously doubt)

The Fed slate in December 2018 seems to have been: LT, AZ, TPH, Vern and Old School Republican. Furthermore, the wiki has a list of the votes by party affiliation.

Of Ninja's 11 first preference votes, not a single one came from a Federalist. He got 4 from his party (Alliance), 4 from Labor, 1 from PUP and 2 from other parties and independents.

[Adam Griffin]

Let's be honest, both Labor/Peace and Feds/ACP have worked as a single party for the purposes of electing people. The fact that the Fed/ACP cooperation is less effective for a large variety of reasons does not mean that they aren't working together.

To be fair, I think we can all agree that the Feds and Conservatives weren't working together in October, because there was no working of any kind going on over there - and ditto arguably for a month or more prior. They recruited barely any candidates at all regionally, recruited absolutely nobody in Lincoln, didn't even bother to recruit a presidential candidate or have a primary, and waited until the last minute to roll out their supposedly-coronated candidates in the South.

This is what happens when movements invest all of their organization, appeal and electoral chops in one person. They didn't learn the lesson after Doof, they didn't learn the lesson after Fhtagn and they apparently still haven't learned the lesson after YT. The reason this collapsed wave hit their shores so hard is because they've been doing this for years now and basically have nobody left who is talented, interested in teamwork and not abhorred by The People. 

[Saint Milei]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

Show us what candidates would warrant acp having influence over the feds.

[Adam Griffin]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

Oh, I don't think Adam has ever claimed to possess the moral high ground. Labor made a deal with the Devil in the years leading up to 2015 and they paid for it, as you have frequently observed.

I wasn't talking about pre-2015 though. Adam sought out and won many radical votes in Oct 2015 on the basis that we was the best one to achieve reform, while at the same time working as a bull work against them achieving their objectives.

Can I just point out here that I won like maybe 25% of the radicals' votes at most? A dozen or more de-registered, and another 8 who actually voted exhausted their preferences, and I received 7 votes from [1] SWE/Dallasfan voters. I haven't bothered to comb back through things, but there were also 3 SWE voters who went to Cris. Given I was the most forceful in opposition to their plans, it speaks more to my electoral skills that I won more of their votes than it does to any sort of collusion or hypocrisy.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

Oh, I don't think Adam has ever claimed to possess the moral high ground. Labor made a deal with the Devil in the years leading up to 2015 and they paid for it, as you have frequently observed.

I wasn't talking about pre-2015 though. Adam sought out and won many radical votes in Oct 2015 on the basis that we was the best one to achieve reform, while at the same time working as a bull work against them achieving their objectives.

Can I just point out here that I won like maybe 25% of the radicals' votes at most? A dozen or more de-registered, and another 8 who actually voted exhausted their preferences, and I received 7 votes from [1] SWE/Dallasfan voters. I haven't bothered to comb back through things, but there were also 3 SWE voters who went to Cris. Given I was the most forceful in opposition to their plans, it speaks more to my electoral skills that I won more of their votes than it does to any sort of collusion or hypocrisy.

Precisely and that was the point I was trying to get across to Truman, he was the one that kept bringing up words like "coordination" and didn't understand what I was trying to communicate.

For strategic reasons both for the game and for labor's survival that was a necessary strategy.

[YE]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

Show us what candidates would warrant acp having influence over the feds.

AZ/fhtagn voters or fhtagn voters in general?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

Show us what candidates would warrant acp having influence over the feds.

AZ/fhtagn voters or fhtagn voters in general?

I think Deadprez got tripped up in the language shifting as well.

Amazing how this started with a specific statement of no coordination in October for house to no coordination in the last 8 months and no influence, both of which are easily disproved, wide acknowledged and openly stated. Amazing what happens when you expand the time frame and generalize the language, anything false can become true.

Fhtagn was VC for a long time, she was also President and thus has a number of personal connections with a a vast number of people.

The problem she is substituting stronger and deeper connections with a shrinking number of people (that is the trend line anyway) and that is why she is do deeply unpopular and revels in it. Of course she can make that choice, she has already been President. For those on the right who desire to be President someday, this is a not a viable path to success.  

[YE]

Ninja got elected in December off the back of Labor votes

Ninja was part of the Federalist slate in December. All fed voters preffed him and he was pushed equally with all other candidates. Then at the very end Labor saw an opportunity to reduce the Feds to only 3 house seats and took it, and gave a few strategic votes to Ninja.

Uh, no he wasn't? (unless Feds were foolishly going for 6-3 in December, which I seriously doubt)

The Fed slate in December 2018 seems to have been: LT, AZ, TPH, Vern and Old School Republican. Furthermore, the wiki has a list of the votes by party affiliation.

Of Ninja's 11 first preference votes, not a single one came from a Federalist. He got 4 from his party (Alliance), 4 from Labor, 1 from PUP and 2 from other parties and independents.

Most of those voters came from Labor super later Day 3 IIRC once it was clear we kept the House. He wasn't really a Labor candidate; I remember arguing to save Vern instead of him (and we would have saved both anyway had Zaybay, TimTurner, and Pericles all voted on time).

[Sestak]

Ninja got elected in December off the back of Labor votes

Ninja was part of the Federalist slate in December. All fed voters preffed him and he was pushed equally with all other candidates. Then at the very end Labor saw an opportunity to reduce the Feds to only 3 house seats and took it, and gave a few strategic votes to Ninja.

Ninja was very clearly lagging the Fed slate by the latter half of Day 3. Sure, the plan may have started out as “elect 4 + Ninja” but by the end it was just to elect the fed main four.

[Saint Milei]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

Show us what candidates would warrant acp having influence over the feds.

AZ/fhtagn voters or fhtagn voters in general?

What are you even talking about

[YE]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

Show us what candidates would warrant acp having influence over the feds.

AZ/fhtagn voters or fhtagn voters in general?

What are you even talking about

People who voted:
AZ/fhtagn and registered as Fed.

Feds for fhtagn for House.

[Leinad]

I have nothing substantive to add, just pointing out that both of this posts are in the same thread:

Besides me, there is basically 0 far-right presence on this forum

I would be interested in joining the Moderate Labor Caucus.

Remember, kids, lay low for a bit when changing your "persona"--the shtick needs to be cooked properly for optimal flavor and consistency!