new england....1976 and 2005

[WalterMitty]

rank the new england states from most liberal to conservative in 1976 and today.

what changes are there and what are the reasons.

discuss.

[dazzleman]

1976
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Maine
Connecticut
Vermont
New Hampshire

2005
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Vermont
Connecticut
Maine
New Hampshire

As you can see, not much change relative to each other, though they have moved to the left of the rest of the country.

In 1976, you had Massachusetts voting the same way as Alabama.  Clearly, there has been a major political realignment since then, as that result is unimaginable today except in an extreme landslide.

[WalterMitty]

d-man, id argue that vermont is currently more liberal than both mass and ri.

[dazzleman]

d-man, id argue that vermont is currently more liberal than both mass and ri.

You could be right.  It's a different type of liberal.  Massachusetts and Rhode Island, particularly Rhode Island, still have a large number of 'lunch-pail' Democrats -- old line Tip O'Neill style Demcrats who are economically liberal and socially at least moderate, maybe a little conservative.

Vermont seems to be much more socially liberal.  It consists of a lot of out-of-touch flakes who have fallen off the grid, and choose to live in a museum.  Don't get me wrong; I love visiting the state.  It is beautiful; but I'd never want to live there.

[minionofmidas]

Vermont seems to be much more socially liberal.  It consists of a lot of out-of-touch flakes who have fallen off the grid, and choose to live in a museum.  Don't get me wrong; I love visiting the state.  It is beautiful; but I'd never want to live there.

There#s one slight problem with that... Vermont has a higher percentage born in the state than... say... Connecticut or New Hampshire. ie Vermont hasn't (primarily) changed due to immigration, but to realignment. In fact, New Hampshire would probably be a lot more like Vermont if it wasn't for the many upper-class immigrants from Massachusetts.

[dazzleman]

There#s one slight problem with that... Vermont has a higher percentage born in the state than... say... Connecticut or New Hampshire. ie Vermont hasn't (primarily) changed due to immigration, but to realignment. In fact, New Hampshire would probably be a lot more like Vermont if it wasn't for the many upper-class immigrants from Massachusetts.

The interesting thing is that Vermont is a far poorer state than Massachusetts, yet its liberalism seems to be more socially based than economically based.

Clearly, there has been a major realignment.  People are voting more on social than economic issues now, though as I said, Massachusetts and Rhode Island, in particular, still have a lot of the old-line economic liberals.  Vermont seems to be an example of an inbred state that is largely imploding due to isolation from reality and willful separation from the modern world.  In its own way, it seems to be becoming like the old pre-civil rights south.

[Kevin]

Vermont's one screwed up state.

[memphis]

There#s one slight problem with that... Vermont has a higher percentage born in the state than... say... Connecticut or New Hampshire. ie Vermont hasn't (primarily) changed due to immigration, but to realignment. In fact, New Hampshire would probably be a lot more like Vermont if it wasn't for the many upper-class immigrants from Massachusetts.

The interesting thing is that Vermont is a far poorer state than Massachusetts, yet its liberalism seems to be more socially based than economically based.

Clearly, there has been a major realignment.  People are voting more on social than economic issues now, though as I said, Massachusetts and Rhode Island, in particular, still have a lot of the old-line economic liberals.  Vermont seems to be an example of an inbred state that is largely imploding due to isolation from reality and willful separation from the modern world.  In its own way, it seems to be becoming like the old pre-civil rights south.

How is Vermont imploding? How is it like the pre-Civil Rights South? Are there lynchings? Do people live with the threat of armed mobs and riots? Do we have Vermonters threatening to leave the Union? Also, here you describe Vermont as inbred and isolated, yet in other threads you have described it as full of immigrants from the urban NE. Which is it?

[dazzleman]

There#s one slight problem with that... Vermont has a higher percentage born in the state than... say... Connecticut or New Hampshire. ie Vermont hasn't (primarily) changed due to immigration, but to realignment. In fact, New Hampshire would probably be a lot more like Vermont if it wasn't for the many upper-class immigrants from Massachusetts.

The interesting thing is that Vermont is a far poorer state than Massachusetts, yet its liberalism seems to be more socially based than economically based.

Clearly, there has been a major realignment.  People are voting more on social than economic issues now, though as I said, Massachusetts and Rhode Island, in particular, still have a lot of the old-line economic liberals.  Vermont seems to be an example of an inbred state that is largely imploding due to isolation from reality and willful separation from the modern world.  In its own way, it seems to be becoming like the old pre-civil rights south.

How is Vermont imploding? How is it like the pre-Civil Rights South? Are there lynchings? Do people live with the threat of armed mobs and riots? Do we have Vermonters threatening to leave the Union? Also, here you describe Vermont as inbred and isolated, yet in other threads you have described it as full of immigrants from the urban NE. Which is it?

Whoa....I said 'in its own way' it's like the pre-civil rights south.  No, none of the things you describe -- lynchings, riots, etc. -- aren't happening, thankfully. 

But there was more to the pre-civil rights south than that.  There was a willful rejection of reality, a rejection of 'big bidness' and those sorts of evil northern influences that could have brought a degree of economic prosperity.  Vermont seems to be moving in that direction.

The inbred state is self-imposed and mental, not actually physical.  It can consist either of native Vermonters or those who move from out of state seeking that isolation from reality.

Don't get me wrong.  I love Vermont and love to visit there.  But politically it's a mess.  And the economy there is pretty poor, partly because it is very hostile to business.  It seems to largely consist of people in the southern part of the state who brought their money in from elsewhere, and a seasonal quasi-tourist economy.  It truly is like taking a step back in time, and while that is very quaint for visitors, there is always a price to be paid for inordinately trying to preserve the past.

[memphis]

Under what measurements is the Vermont economy poor? According to the Census Bureau, the poverty rate there is lower there than in the United States as a whole, retail sales per capita are higher, while median income is roughly the same as the US, so people are earning the same as elsewhere, not just bringing money from New York or wherever. Vermont is somewhat isolated, being a rural state, but not nearly as isolated as most Republican-dominated rural locations. The urban NE is just a few hours away. If you want to see really inbred and isolated in America, check out West Virginia, Mississippi, or the Dakotas.

[dazzleman]

Under what measurements is the Vermont economy poor? According to the Census Bureau, the poverty rate there is lower there than in the United States as a whole, retail sales per capita are higher, while median income is roughly the same as the US, so people are earning the same as elsewhere, not just bringing money from New York or wherever. Vermont is somewhat isolated, being a rural state, but not nearly as isolated as most Republican-dominated rural locations. The urban NE is just a few hours away. If you want to see really inbred and isolated in America, check out West Virginia, Mississippi, or the Dakotas.

I had read that it was one of the countries poorer states, just above some of the deep southern states.  Have you visited Vermont?

[Kevin]

I heard VT is the only state that has Universial Health Care.

[© tweed]

I heard VT is the only state that has Universial Health Care.

Thanks to Governor Dean

[Kevin]

VT pretty F***ed up with a capital F though. 

[© tweed]

VT pretty F***ed up with a capital F though. 

How so?

[Joe Republic]

I heard VT is the only state that has Universial Health Care.

I thought you supported that?

[Kevin]

I do but VT liberalness has gone way too far.

[© tweed]

I do but VT liberalness has gone way too far.

Examples?  Or some more blanket statements?

[jimrtex]

There's one slight problem with that... Vermont has a higher percentage born in the state than... say... Connecticut or New Hampshire. ie Vermont hasn't (primarily) changed due to immigration, but to realignment. In fact, New Hampshire would probably be a lot more like Vermont if it wasn't for the many upper-class immigrants from Massachusetts.

Higher than NH for certain, but not CT.

Percentage of 2000 population born in State:

ME 67.3%
MA 66.1
RI  61.4
CT 57.0
VT 54.3
NH 43.3

Percentage of born-in population in state in 2000.

ME 66.3%
MA 66.2
CT 65.0
NH 61.1
RI  60.4
VT 59.1

The combination of these two suggests that the growth in NH and CT is more an augmentation, while that in VT is more of a replacement.  Migration to VT is from futher afield, while NY is the #1 source, it is people moving across the border from the Adirondacks, but moving up from NYC.  This is unlike NH, where the growth is due to suburban expansion of Boston
(24.8% of NH was born in MA), or CT, where the growth is due to suburban growth of NYC.

Over 5-population in 2000, living in state in 1995:

CT 92.4%
ME 90.2
MA 89.1
RI  87.6
VT 86.6
NH 84.6

VT leads in percentage of move-ins from the West; is just behind ME and NH for move-ins from the South; and is tied with NH for move-ins from the Midwest.

NH really isn't like VT, and never has been.  It is sort of like saying that NV is UT, because NV usually voted Republican.

[Gustaf]

I find it somewhat interesting that New Hampshire historically seems to have differed from Vermont and Maine, being more Democratic than them. New Hampshire was the only Northeastern state to vote for Wilson in 1916.