S.19.3-17: Lawyers Without School Act of 2019 (Passed)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 22, 2021, 05:17:50 AM
News: EV Calculator updated with new apportionment numbers, custom labels, orange party color and more. Read more

  Talk Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government
  Regional Governments (Moderator: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  S.19.3-17: Lawyers Without School Act of 2019 (Passed)
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: S.19.3-17: Lawyers Without School Act of 2019 (Passed)  (Read 1019 times)
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: August 30, 2019, 07:20:58 AM »
« edited: September 21, 2019, 12:44:43 AM by Southern Speaker Muaddib »

Quote
Lawyers Without School Act of 2019

Section I - Title: The Title of this Bill shall be “Lawyers Without School Act”

Section II – Options
      Any citizen of the South, over the age of 18, who has obtained a high school, is eligible to take the bar exam if they have completed the following requirements
1.   Graduated from an accredited law school in Atlasia
2.   Completes a Law Office Apprenticeship Program in the South

Section III – Law Office Apprenticeship Program
      All participants of the Apprenticeship Program are subject to the following
1.   A four-year apprenticeship with a law firm, lawyer with a degree from an accredited law school in Atlasia, or a professor of law at a college or university in the South
2.   Each student will be required to work and train for 18 hours a week under Section III. 1
3.   Passage of a First-Year Law Student’s Exam is required at the end of the first year of apprenticeship in order to continue the program. The cost of the exam will be $50
4.   Students must demonstrate positive moral character determination over the course of the program
5.   All requirements (other than the bar exam and completion of law school ) in order to be a lawyer must be fulfilled in order to complete the program

Section IV – Lawyers
Lawyers, law firms, and professors of law have the discretion of picking students they want to apprentice.

Section V – Fees
1.   A one-time fee of $100 shall be given to the Southern Government in order to enroll in the apprenticeship program
2.   An annual fee of $1500 a year shall be given to the mentor under Section III.1 in order to continue the apprenticeship program
Sponsor: Delegate DeadPrez
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2019, 04:22:22 PM »

The goal of this bill is to reduce the cost on future lawyers. Law school tuition is incredibly high and many lawyers argue students only need two years to be trained lawyers. Additionally, it is possible to pass the bar without going to law school. This bill ensures potential lawyers are able to be trained as lawyers, without incurring the forced cost of attending law school. This could also make schools push their costs down or better assist students who have a difficult time managing their loan debt.
Logged
Southern Deputy Speaker Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,085
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2019, 08:03:59 PM »

The goal of this bill is to reduce the cost on future lawyers. Law school tuition is incredibly high and many lawyers argue students only need two years to be trained lawyers. Additionally, it is possible to pass the bar without going to law school. This bill ensures potential lawyers are able to be trained as lawyers, without incurring the forced cost of attending law school. This could also make schools push their costs down or better assist students who have a difficult time managing their loan debt.
Well, I'm convinced.
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2019, 10:53:00 PM »

due to the weather, I will wait until TSA is safe to motion for a final vote.
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2019, 01:26:23 AM »

due to the weather, I will wait until TSA is safe to motion for a final vote.
This is a good idea. It also provides our fellow delegates a chance to comment and debate this bill further.

The reason I support this bill is that there has been too much emphasis in years gone by on getting an expensive piece of paper. If we can actually reduce the cost by streamlining the process, all without lowering the actual standards of the tests... Why wouldn't we want to provide that opportunity to those who are capable?

Hopefully this doesn't incentivize "ambulance chasing". I am somewhat worried that more lawyers means more of those parasitical lawyers in the "ambulance chasing industry".
Logged
#TheShadowyAbyss
TheShadowyAbyss
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,993
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -5.81, S: -3.64


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2019, 09:23:59 PM »

I don't agree with the fee to the mentor. In general I won't support this bill.
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2019, 09:28:09 PM »

I don't agree with the fee to the mentor. In general I won't support this bill.

Are you in opposition only because of the fee? Or do you have any other reservations?


If it is just the fee, is it the cost?
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2019, 08:09:19 AM »

I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of Delegate Reagente as I believe this could very well be an issue close to his heart.
Logged
reagente
Atlas Politician
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 1,008
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.52, S: 5.13

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 03:03:14 PM »

I am concerned about the mandated training times. One of the things Law School does best is acclimate you to the workload you will experience in the profession. I would amend the training time to at least 40 hours a week.

Furthermore, I'm unsure that having the student take a first-year law exam(s?) would be conductive. Either the student will be taking significantly less examinations (one instead of three to five as seems standard), or they will be taking exams they will probably lack the means to pass given that an apprenticeship would be in a specialized field. I might be more amenable to this program if it mandated one have multiple mentors over the four year period.

I also don't know why the mentor needs payment. If the prospective lawyer is getting paid at market compensation, the mentor can just garnish wages. If they aren't getting paid, then it would stand to reason the free labor should be an incentive in and of itself.
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2019, 05:18:14 PM »

I am concerned about the mandated training times. One of the things Law School does best is acclimate you to the workload you will experience in the profession. I would amend the training time to at least 40 hours a week.

Furthermore, I'm unsure that having the student take a first-year law exam(s?) would be conductive. Either the student will be taking significantly less examinations (one instead of three to five as seems standard), or they will be taking exams they will probably lack the means to pass given that an apprenticeship would be in a specialized field. I might be more amenable to this program if it mandated one have multiple mentors over the four year period.

I also don't know why the mentor needs payment. If the prospective lawyer is getting paid at market compensation, the mentor can just garnish wages. If they aren't getting paid, then it would stand to reason the free labor should be an incentive in and of itself.

I think I got the number of hours from a similar program in California. I'm unsure why they picked that number.

My reasoning was most students who will be mentored will probably work full-time and won't have enough time to take on a lot of hours through the program.


I see your point about the exams. Forgot to clarify. Year 1 will be structured similarly to how 1L is but I assume most of the students in the mentorship program already have an idea about what kind of law they want to practice. Regardless, all lawyers need the basics and that's what 1L is about right? I'll add an amendment outlining the specifics. I also agree there should be multiple mentors.


The student isn't getting paid for his time in the program unless he gets some summer associate position and that would be separate from the program. I figured the 1500 could make up for a loss in hours for the lawyer or firm. I'm fine if this is removed.
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 12:39:31 AM »

Any other criticisms? If not, I will be putting some amendments forth
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 08:32:47 AM »

Any other criticisms? If not, I will be putting some amendments forth

I would put forward you amendments. It appears as tho debate is dying down and I for one would welcome amendments to improve this bill further.
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 05:38:00 PM »

Quote
Lawyers Without School Act of 2019

Section I - Title: The Title of this Bill shall be “Lawyers Without School Act”

Section II – Options
      Any citizen of the South, over the age of 18, who has obtained a high school, is eligible to take the bar exam if they have completed the following requirements
1.   Graduated from an accredited law school in Atlasia
2.   Completes a Law Office Apprenticeship Program in the South

Section III – Law Office Apprenticeship Program
      All participants of the Apprenticeship Program are subject to the following
1.   A four-year apprenticeship with a law firm, lawyer with a degree from an accredited law school in Atlasia, or a professor of law at a college or university in the South
2.   Each student will be required to work and train for 40 hours a week under Section III. 1

3A.    Passage of a First-Year Law Student’s Exam is required at the end of the first year of apprenticeship in order to continue the program. The cost of the exam will be $50
3B. Year 1 of the mentorship program will be structured similarly to how the first year of law school is structured for students. The implementation shall be at the discretion of the mentor (professor, lawyer, or law firm)
4.   Students must demonstrate positive moral character determination over the course of the program
5.   All requirements (other than the bar exam and completion of law school ) in order to be a lawyer must be fulfilled in order to complete the program

Section IV – Lawyers
Lawyers, law firms, and professors of law have the discretion of picking students they want to apprentice.

Section V – Fees
1.   A one-time fee of $100 shall be given to the Southern Government in order to enroll in the apprenticeship program
2.   An annual fee of $1500 a year shall be given to the mentor under Section III.1 in order to continue the apprenticeship program
Sponsor: Delegate DeadPrez

I propose the following amendments
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2019, 01:13:13 AM »

Quote
Lawyers Without School Act of 2019

Section I - Title: The Title of this Bill shall be “Lawyers Without School Act”

Section II – Options
      Any citizen of the South, over the age of 18, who has obtained a high school, is eligible to take the bar exam if they have completed the following requirements
1.   Graduated from an accredited law school in Atlasia
2.   Completes a Law Office Apprenticeship Program in the South

Section III – Law Office Apprenticeship Program
      All participants of the Apprenticeship Program are subject to the following
1.   A four-year apprenticeship with a law firm, lawyer with a degree from an accredited law school in Atlasia, or a professor of law at a college or university in the South
2.   Each student will be required to work and train for 40 hours a week under Section III. 1

3A.    Passage of a First-Year Law Student’s Exam is required at the end of the first year of apprenticeship in order to continue the program. The cost of the exam will be $50
3B. Year 1 of the mentorship program will be structured similarly to how the first year of law school is structured for students. The implementation shall be at the discretion of the mentor (professor, lawyer, or law firm)
4.   Students must demonstrate positive moral character determination over the course of the program
5.   All requirements (other than the bar exam and completion of law school ) in order to be a lawyer must be fulfilled in order to complete the program

Section IV – Lawyers
Lawyers, law firms, and professors of law have the discretion of picking students they want to apprentice.

Section V – Fees
1.   A one-time fee of $100 shall be given to the Southern Government in order to enroll in the apprenticeship program
2.   An annual fee of $1500 a year shall be given to the mentor under Section III.1 in order to continue the apprenticeship program
Sponsor: Delegate DeadPrez

I propose the following amendments

If there are no objections 24 hours after, Delegate DeadPrez's amendments were posted, they will be the working version of the bill. I will take Proxies in the event of an objection.
Logged
Southern Deputy Speaker Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,085
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2019, 04:56:15 AM »

no objection.
if there is an objection consider this a proxy Aye vote.
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2019, 09:58:13 PM »

Any other criticisms?
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2019, 05:01:29 PM »

Motion for a final vote
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2019, 03:06:36 AM »

Seconded.
Logged
Southern Deputy Speaker Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,085
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2019, 03:46:06 AM »

Thirded.
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2019, 04:31:33 AM »

Voting is open on S.19.3-17: Lawyers Without School Act of 2019.

Sound the bells. (Delegates will be DM'd)

Voting Options are:
[   ] Aye
[   ] Nay
[   ] Abstain
Logged
Southern Deputy Speaker Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,085
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2019, 05:34:15 AM »

Aye
Logged
Muad'dib (OSR MSR)
Muaddib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,608
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2019, 08:57:45 AM »

Aye
Logged
reagente
Atlas Politician
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 1,008
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.52, S: 5.13

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2019, 10:53:47 AM »

aye
Logged
Our Enemy, the Left
DeadPrez
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,103


Political Matrix
E: 9.16, S: -7.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2019, 12:24:02 PM »

Aye
Logged
#TheShadowyAbyss
TheShadowyAbyss
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,993
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -5.81, S: -3.64


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2019, 08:12:22 PM »

Nay
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.051 seconds with 13 queries.