MA-SEN Megathread: Senator Markey wins

[Gass3268]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

This is a bit of a surprise.

Not particularly. If someone challenges an incumbent from the left who votes with Trump 70% of the time, they're an upstart and anyone who works with them needs to be cast out of the party. Squash them like the bug that they are!

If someone challenges a noncontroversial incumbent from the right, they're a "courageous leader" and a "rising star".

Let's all be real about this.

If I understand correctly, Pelosi will back every incumbent in the House during a primary, no matter if they're challenged from the right or the left (Remember the Omar endorsement a few days ago?).

It's surprising because this is a Senate race and she's making a move.

And if we're being real, this Kennedy challenge isn't exactly from "the right".

Yeah, ideologically they are essentially the same. Main differences are:

- House vs Senate
- Youth vs Age
- Kennedy vs Not a Kennedy

[Roronoa D. Law]

What's ironic is that many socialist on here and Twitter constantly point to the New Deal and the Great Society as the best example of American liberalism. But both of those bills were created by two men from wealthy political dynasties who were the literal definition of establishment Democrats.

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

This is a bit of a surprise.

Not particularly. If someone challenges an incumbent from the left who votes with Trump 70% of the time, they're an upstart and anyone who works with them needs to be cast out of the party. Squash them like the bug that they are!

If someone challenges a noncontroversial incumbent from the right, they're a "courageous leader" and a "rising star".

Let's all be real about this.

This is really coming down to House vs Senate. I mean the chairs of the Progressive Caucus, both of whom were Sanders supporters, are backing Kennedy.

All the more ironic, given Markey served in the House for nearly 4 decades & was Pelosi's right-hand man on climate change issues during her 1st speakership.

[Morning in Atlas]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

This is a bit of a surprise.

Not particularly. If someone challenges an incumbent from the left who votes with Trump 70% of the time, they're an upstart and anyone who works with them needs to be cast out of the party. Squash them like the bug that they are!

If someone challenges a noncontroversial incumbent from the right, they're a "courageous leader" and a "rising star".

Let's all be real about this.

You're right, it is pretty hypocritical when #RoseTwitter pretends Ayanna Pressely is a "courageous leader" and a "rising star."  

We're not talking about Rose Twitter and Ayanna Pressley. We're talking about Nancy Pelosi, Joe Kennedy, and Henry Cuellar.

Between this and AOC only getting "speaking time" to fulfill a procedural duty, I feel pretty vindicated in my "DNC hates the left more than the right" spiel.

[America Needs R'hllor]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

Remember, folks: the establishment hates socialists more than it hates fascists.

Ah yes, the famous anti-socialist warriors Pocan and Jayapal.

[LtNOWIS]

It's totally appropriate for Hoyer and Pelosi to support one of their caucus members over an incumbent Senator. They're demonstrating loyalty to their fellow Representatives, instead of deferring to the upper house of Congress.

So if one of their House members primaries Biden, it’d be appropriate for Hoyer and Pelosi to support the House member?

It would be appropriate, yes. However it would be political malpractice to support such a challenge unless it's actually somewhat viable, which would only happen if Biden is unpopular with his own party in 2024.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

This is a bit of a surprise.

Not particularly. If someone challenges an incumbent from the left who votes with Trump 70% of the time, they're an upstart and anyone who works with them needs to be cast out of the party. Squash them like the bug that they are!

If someone challenges a noncontroversial incumbent from the right, they're a "courageous leader" and a "rising star".

Let's all be real about this.

You're right, it is pretty hypocritical when #RoseTwitter pretends Ayanna Pressely is a "courageous leader" and a "rising star" for primarying a non-controversial incumbent from the right.

There were some dogwhistles in that primary and Capuano was pretty progressive, but he was not exactly primaried "from the right" (the ideological battle was mostly fought on non-economic lines). Pressley took a harder stance on the border wall, defunding ICE and being pro-Palestinian; Capuano was more of a pacifist but a bit more protectionist about law enforcement. It is fair to say that he had a much longer record of supporting Medicare for All, but that's not a policy Pressley has gone back on since winning her seat, so it's not as if her shift wasn't genuine. The one issue where she did seem to be unambiguously to the right of him was public-private partnerships and that is hardly an animating issue of the times (despite being quite important, actually).

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

Remember, folks: the establishment hates socialists more than it hates fascists.

No offense, but I literally have no idea what you're talking about.  Ed Markey is not a socialist and Joe Kennedy III isn't a fascist.

Both are progressive, but Markey is tougher on corporate excesses and - more importantly - more willing to stick his neck out further than the party's moderate leadership might like. Said leadership is so relaxed about the fight against Donald Trump that they allow the Committee to make obvious mistakes like booking Warren for the Native American caucus, but - as we've seen with Neal v.s. Morse - can be very invested in ensuring that they retain the Democratic spots available.

This is the iron law of institutions at work: people in an organisation sometimes care more about their own place in said organisation than the wider interest of the organisation (in this case, the Democratic Party).

Obviously, I've been opposed to Kennedy's candidacy since before he even got in the race because Markey has been such a strong and effective progressive voice in the Senate.  But with all due respect to Sawx, it seems pretty absurd to call this is a race between socialism and fascism

I think he was referring to them being more concerned about unseating Markey than Trump. However, I'm not sure it's that overtly ideological and the iron law can still apply even if it isn't.

[Morning in Atlas]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

Remember, folks: the establishment hates socialists more than it hates fascists.

Ah yes, the famous anti-socialist warriors Pocan and Jayapal.

That's just 2 names. I'll even throw you one more in Raul Grijalva.

Either way, very interesting to see Pelosi defend ****ty incumbents and endorse a primary challenger who happens to be challenging slightly from his right.

[America Needs R'hllor]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

Remember, folks: the establishment hates socialists more than it hates fascists.

Ah yes, the famous anti-socialist warriors Pocan and Jayapal.

That's just 2 names. I'll even throw you one more in Raul Grijalva.

Either way, very interesting to see Pelosi defend ****ty incumbents and endorse a primary challenger who happens to be challenging slightly from his right.

It's clearly a weird internal Senate vs House issue. There's no need to keep litigating these establishment vs socialist themes every time.

[Skye]

Pelosi recorded a vid as well:

https://twitter.com/JTHVerhovek/status/1296496214440108033

[randomusername]

What's ironic is that many socialist on here and Twitter constantly point to the New Deal and the Great Society as the best example of American liberalism. But both of those bills were created by two men from wealthy political dynasties who were the literal definition of establishment Democrats.

I'm assuming you're talking about FDR and Kennedy. Well first of all, the Great Society was LBJ not Kennedy. Second of all, it's not like they were one giant bill they were drafted by many different legislators. For example, the 1933 Banking Act was drafted by Steagall.  The Social Security Amendments of 1965 was drafted by Wilbur Mills.

Regardless, they may have been the literal definition of establishment Democrats then. That doesn't mean they'd be the literal definition of establishment Democrats now.

[Dipper Josh]

I have many issues with what's being said here. It's not a House vs. Senate issue. "But she endorsed Omar, AOC, and Tlaib!" Of course she did because they were all going to win anyway and there's no reason to get egg on your face. There are clearly ideological or behind the scenes undertones here. She's not going to endorse AOC primarying Gillibrand or Tlaib primarying Stabenow. (it wont happen but if it does, she wont). She didnt just endorse Kennedy against a respected incumbent because she's "Team House #1 yay!" there's clearly other things at play here.

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

This is a bit of a surprise.

Not particularly. If someone challenges an incumbent from the left who votes with Trump 70% of the time, they're an upstart and anyone who works with them needs to be cast out of the party. Squash them like the bug that they are!

If someone challenges a noncontroversial incumbent from the right, they're a "courageous leader" and a "rising star".

Let's all be real about this.

You're right, it is pretty hypocritical when #RoseTwitter pretends Ayanna Pressely is a "courageous leader" and a "rising star" for primarying a non-controversial incumbent from the right.  

No she didn't. She attacked him on ICE, support of Police Unions, and donor money. The Police Union stuff was a huge deal in the primary because Capuano is an old school pro-Union politician and wasnt able to make an exception when he needed to. Is she far to the left of him? No, not even close. However, to say she's to the right of him is very stupid.

[Roblox]

"We must blacklist those who work to primary incumbents, since we can't have people dividing us up….UNLESS"

[😥]

I still support Markey in this race, but after all I don't know if I want to support him. And not because I was affected by Pelosi endorsement. And not because my opinion of Markey has deteriorated, I considered and still consider him a great Senator.

But because most far-left fanatics now talk about Pelosi, who likes fascists more than socialists, and Kennedy, who is a far-right trumpist

[SWE]

If you think Markey and Kennedy are basically the same ideologically, then you haven't been paying attention either to this race or either man's record and career. In either case, I have some ocean front property in Oklahoma I'm willing to sell to anyone who actually believes this.

[Morning in Atlas]

I still support Markey in this race, but after all I don't know if I want to support him. And not because I was affected by Pelosi endorsement. And not because my opinion of Markey has deteriorated, I considered and still consider him a great Senator.

But because most far-left fanatics now talk about Pelosi, who likes fascists more than socialists, and Kennedy, who is a far-right trumpist

Never said anything of the sort about Kennedy.

The Pelosi **** was more of an indictment on the entire establishment, but she showed her true colors today. Hopefully the new wave of JDs torpedoes her leadership bid over this.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

https://twitter.com/vgmac/status/1296484779215532034

Remember, folks: the establishment hates socialists more than it hates fascists.

No offense, but I literally have no idea what you're talking about.  Ed Markey is not a socialist and Joe Kennedy III isn't a fascist.

You're obfuscating the last point I made. A primary challenger from the left is a pariah, a challenger from the (admittedly vague) right is a bright young man. Surely you see the hypocrisy from Pelosi, right?

I see hypocrisy in Pelosi backing a primary challenger against a Democratic incumbent, but I don't think it has anything to do with either candidate's ideology any more than Pelosi's endorsement of Ilhan Omar did  

This is basically a proxy fight between the House and Senate Democratic Caucuses, perhaps even between Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi specifically.  That's all that's going on here as far as congressional Democrats are concerned.  

However, I do see ideological hypocrisy from - and I'm not saying this applies to you, I genuinely don't remember who you supported - Berniecrats who supported primary challenges from the right against folks like Michael Capuano, Jerry Nadler, and Mike Honda and now cry foul here.  I say all that as a Markey supporter who considers Kennedy little more than an over-hyped empty suit who is already a waste of a perfectly good House seat as it is

[Morning in Atlas]

I'm not sure about the Nadler challenge, but Honda's primary challenge was more about his corruption than anything. I trusted Honda more as a progressive, and I'm glad Khanna has followed through (as I did Capuano), but I wasn't too sad about him losing.

Other than that, SWE and Tilts explained the real hypocrisy going on. If Omar ran for the MN-SEN nom and was somehow running a competitive race, you bet your ass Pelosi would be staying neutral.

[Roronoa D. Law]

What's ironic is that many socialist on here and Twitter constantly point to the New Deal and the Great Society as the best example of American liberalism. But both of those bills were created by two men from wealthy political dynasties who were the literal definition of establishment Democrats.

I'm assuming you're talking about FDR and Kennedy. Well first of all, the Great Society was LBJ not Kennedy. Second of all, it's not like they were one giant bill they were drafted by many different legislators. For example, the 1933 Banking Act was drafted by Steagall.  The Social Security Amendments of 1965 was drafted by Wilbur Mills.

Regardless, they may have been the literal definition of establishment Democrats then. That doesn't mean they'd be the literal definition of establishment Democrats now.

No, I was talking LBJ. He is greatest example of someone who used political office to amass a fortune.

[Morning in Atlas]

https://twitter.com/JTHVerhovek/status/1296503308685848580

So essentially leaning into the Bernie Bro narrative.

The apology box is back open, folks.

[Skye]

AOC firing shots as well 👀

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1296498853517176832

[Morning in Atlas]

https://twitter.com/MondaireJones/status/1296493738152398855?s=19

https://twitter.com/JCisnerosTX/status/1296496058407817217?s=19

King Mondaire weighs in, along with the best example of Pelosi aiding fascists over socialists.

They have infinitely more patience than I do. You can only be told so many times to go **** yourself before you start listening.

[S019]

AOC firing shots as well 👀

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1296498853517176832

She clearly isn't aware that Pelosi has a policy of endorsing House incumbents, and that to Pelosi, this is about supporting her fellow caucus member, not about the Senate race. AOC, of all people, should know this given that Pelosi endorsed her and Omar, as well as Lipinski and Cuellar, there's no ideological motive here.

I still support Markey in this race, but after all I don't know if I want to support him. And not because I was affected by Pelosi endorsement. And not because my opinion of Markey has deteriorated, I considered and still consider him a great Senator.

But because most far-left fanatics now talk about Pelosi, who likes fascists more than socialists, and Kennedy, who is a far-right trumpist

Never said anything of the sort about Kennedy.

The Pelosi **** was more of an indictment on the entire establishment, but she showed her true colors today. Hopefully the new wave of JDs torpedoes her leadership bid over this.

Also this would arguably be worse for the left, as this is the perfect chance for Steny Hoyer to run for the Speakership, and he is well to Pelosi's right.

[Morning in Atlas]

Just remember:

We are watching you.

We will remember you.

And come January, when you ask for our help to keep your gavel, we will replace you.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Just remember:

We are watching you.

We will remember you.

And come January, when you ask for our help to keep your gavel, we will replace you.

There are too few for that. Pelosi will get another term. I could see the caucus getting too hostile for Hoyer by 2022, in which case that's one more reason for him to curse the boss who denied him the Speakership for so long.