"The Will of the People"

[Sestak]

So I've seen a lot of this phrase thrown around over the Confederate flag debacle over the past few months. Or the similar "respecting the results of the referendum". These phrases have been used recently to either justify decisions by elected officials to vote for or sign off on the Confederate flag as the flag of the South, and before that it was thrown around a lot immediately after the result of the referendum, seemingly as a way to ensure elected officials would not formally oppose the change as they'd be "overturning the will of the people".

But what really is the will of the people regarding the Confederate flag? Well, let's look at the referendum. Voters decisively chose the Confederate-based flag that the region has now been shamefully adopted... over three other flags dominated by Confederate imagery. In other words, out of four Confederate flags, the people chose the recently-adopted flag as their preferred one. On no ballot was there a choice between adopting a Confederate flag and a non-Confederate one.

So yes, when we have people subsequently proclaiming that the legislature would be squashing the will of the people by refusing to adopt the winning flag, and the governor using this as a justification for signing it despite it being "personally abhorrent" to him, I find this to be rather blatant dishonesty.

And actually, this comes to another point. The four flag designs on the ballot were not pulled from thin air. Nor were they the only flags submitted for the referendum. The choice of which flags made it to the ballot was made by the Southern Flag Change Committee, a committee which was chaired by and whose creation was spurred by the Governor of the South, who, again, recently stated that he found the Confederate flag "personally abhorrent". His committee, however, chose to only advance Confederate-themed flags to the ballot, despite the fact that not all of the flags that were submitted had Confederate imagery.

In fact, the Governor's own vote in the flag committe has him voting to advance the four Confederate flags that made it to the referendum, and no other flags. So, despite it being "personally abhorrent" to him, he not only did not say anything or raise any alarm about the lack of non-confederate flags, but he actively voted to allow only Confederate flags on the ballot. Subsequently following this, he used the argument that the Confederate flag should be enacted in order to "respect the result of the referendum" and "respect the democratic process" - even though, again, the flag was only chosen by a false choice that he himself created - to justify his signing of the bill.

Then, following backlash from some prominent Southerners - including a very prominent member of his own party - he suddenly declares that he supports having a second referendum to overturn the flag change decision and signs the petition to do exactly that.

In full summary, the Governor of the South:
- Used his flag committee to create a referendum between four Confederate flags
- Signed the statuted enacting the Confederate flag, despite "extreme dislike" for it, in order to "respect the democratic process" despite referendum being a false choice of his own creation
- Signed and posted in support of a petition to overturn the newly adopted confederate flag

So again, I think the people deserve to know, if the Governor of the South really finds the Confederate flag "personally abhorrent" and wants it overturned, why did he take steps to create a sham referendum between four Confederate flags and then use its result as a justification for signing it into law?

[fhtagn]

The amount of reaching you're doing is hilarious, Sestak. Please try not to strain yourself.

[Pericles]

The amount of reaching you're doing is hilarious, Sestak. Please try not to strain yourself.

Not sure how stating basic facts and calling out obvious BS is reaching.

[Pericles]

Thank goodness Atlasia rejected this kind of governance in June!

[fhtagn]

I wonder where the outrage is at MB and TimTurner, who also supported flags that have Confederate imagery. In fact, the flag change was MB's idea all along.

I expect a response from you on this, Sestak. And any other Laborite who wants to make it about party or low quality attacks on the current Southern Governor.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

In general people should probably stick to the business in their own regions. It might be helpful if people ate some of the old proverbial concrete and harden up. The new flag of the South is not a "Confederate flag". Can some one show me where this flag was ever flown by the confederacy? Quite simply one can not as this a new design.

The amount of reaching you're doing is hilarious, Sestak. Please try not to strain yourself.

Not sure how stating basic facts and calling out obvious BS is reaching.

I forget that Kiwi's suck at picking spin.

Thank goodness Atlasia rejected this kind of governance in June!

Well none of the flags in the referendum were ever flown by the confederacy. The closest to actually being a confederate flag was Option 1. Which President Griffin was in favor of.

I wonder where the outrage is at MB and TimTurner, who also supported flags that have Confederate imagery. In fact, the flag change was MB's idea all along.

I expect a response from you on this, Sestak. And any other Laborite who wants to make it about party or low quality attacks on the current Southern Governor.

Also is should be noted that TSA and Elcaspar voted in favor of the flag change.

[Sestak]

I wonder where the outrage is at MB and TimTurner, who also supported flags that have Confederate imagery. In fact, the flag change was MB's idea all along.

I expect a response from you on this, Sestak. And any other Laborite who wants to make it about party.

About party? When did I ever make any of this about party? I'm talking about exactly one person (who isn't even in your party) here. There are several people on the right who are completely in the right on this, including some who I've had some pretty harsh disagreements with in the past.

Addressing MB and Tim, I will note that neither of them voted to allow only Confederate flags onto the ballot and nothing else. And after that point they most certainly did not use such a sham referendum to justify voting for or signing off on the change.

Yes, obviously I'm not happy with their support of the Confederate flag. But what was done here, with the creation of this Confederate-only referendum, followed by an immediate switch to a reluctant "we have to follow the will of democracy", then a complete reversal, is not just "bad". It's blatantly dishonest.

[Devout Centrist]

Anyone in the Labor Party should have opposed this attempt to make any Confederate flag the official flag of the South. Those who didn't made a mistake, in my opinion. However, the blatant equivocation by YT is a sight to behold and a sure sign that he doesn't know what to do. How he didn't foresee the current controversy, I have no idea.

YT is the Governor of the South. The buck stops with him.

[Blair]

I wonder where the outrage is at MB and TimTurner, who also supported flags that have Confederate imagery. In fact, the flag change was MB's idea all along.

I expect a response from you on this, Sestak. And any other Laborite who wants to make it about party or low quality attacks on the current Southern Governor.

See my post 😇

I managed to attack both the cowardly governor and the Assembly

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

I wonder where the outrage is at MB and TimTurner, who also supported flags that have Confederate imagery. In fact, the flag change was MB's idea all along.

I expect a response from you on this, Sestak. And any other Laborite who wants to make it about party or low quality attacks on the current Southern Governor.

See my post 😇

I managed to attack both the cowardly governor and the Assembly

It's the Southern Chamber of Delegates.

But then again most of this outrage is from people that can't tell what an actual confederate flag is.
So why would we expect people to know what the legislative body is called?

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

It was annoying when MB did it as a joke, and it's ten times more annoying when right-wing Atlasians do the same thing in total seriousness. Thanks for getting the record straight, Ses and Blair

[Blair]

I wonder where the outrage is at MB and TimTurner, who also supported flags that have Confederate imagery. In fact, the flag change was MB's idea all along.

I expect a response from you on this, Sestak. And any other Laborite who wants to make it about party or low quality attacks on the current Southern Governor.

See my post 😇

I managed to attack both the cowardly governor and the Assembly

It's the Southern Chamber of Delegates.

But then again most of this outrage is from people that can't tell what an actual confederate flag is.
So why would we expect people to know what the legislative body is called?

Oh god forbid someone got something wrong on the internet.

Some of us have been around long enough to see each region and it’s legislature change name- we’ve also been around long enough to see Theodore Bilbo wannabes such as yourself fade into obscurity. 

[Sestak]

If you take a Nazi flag and the switch the swastika in the other direction, does that all of a sudden mean it’s a totally normal, okay flag and definitely not a Nazi flag in any way? Would it be appropriate for modern Germany to adopt such a flag?

This is basically the equivalent of your argument that this “isn’t actually a confederate flag”.

[Wikipedia delenda est]

It was annoying when MB did it as a joke, and it's ten times more annoying when right-wing Atlasians do the same thing in total seriousness. Thanks for getting the record straight, Ses and Blair

I'd actually argue that's it's more annoying when it's done as a joke. Besides showing a severe lack of judgement, it displays an inability to know when "memeing" (often done in extremely poor taste) is appropriate and when things should be taken more seriously.

[Devout Centrist]

But something important to note actually, Labor introduced it into the Chamber, Labor had the votes to block it in the Chamber while Paul was on LOA, yet it wasn’t. Don’t say the buck stops with me when y’all had every single chance to not see it through.

You may not be aware of this, but as the Governor of the South, you were in prime position to stop this from happening.

I'm well aware that members of the Labor Party made a pretty serious mistake by backing this flag change and they share the blame here. But let's be clear, that does not excuse your lack of leadership and blatant equivocation on this issue.

[Devout Centrist]

But something important to note actually, Labor introduced it into the Chamber, Labor had the votes to block it in the Chamber while Paul was on LOA, yet it wasn’t. Don’t say the buck stops with me when y’all had every single chance to not see it through.

You may not be aware of this, but as the Governor of the South, you were in prime position to stop this from happening.

I'm well aware that members of the Labor Party made a pretty serious mistake by backing this flag change and they share the blame here. But let's be clear, that does not excuse your lack of leadership and blatant equivocation on this issue.

I can’t sign bills like that and make changes like that without the Chamber approving it. Anyways look, the amount of faux outrage is absolutely hilarious and I highly encourage you all to keep talking about this.

I suppose you just forgot that you could veto a bill you don't like? What kind of leadership does that show?

This is a bad response for someone intent on running for President.

[Pericles]

We all know who the candidates will be in October lol no point denying it let's just get this started.

[Coastal Elitist]

Sigh, all of this faux outrage is ridiculous. As it's been pointed out Labor could have stopped this and they didn't. Not to mention it's not a flag that was ever flown during the confederacy and yes that does matter. Anyways people in this game obsess way to much over every little thing. Do most people even know what the different regions flags are, cause I'm thinking the answer is no. Also regarding the Swastika that Sestak mentioned, it's actually used quite a bit historically and in modern times for non Nazi things.

If you want to learn more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[fhtagn]

If you take a Nazi flag and the switch the swastika in the other direction, does that all of a sudden mean it’s a totally normal, okay flag and definitely not a Nazi flag in any way? Would it be appropriate for modern Germany to adopt such a flag?

This is basically the equivalent of your argument that this “isn’t actually a confederate flag”.

I suggest taking a look at several IRL state flags...

[Dr. MB]

No comment. Also won’t be voting in the referendum cause I don’t give enough of a sh!t about this.

[Donerail]

We're bringing it back



Anyway, not to be too much of an old man about this, but back in my day we had a controversy over the beautiful flag above, which is #edgy and very cool if you're 13. Legislature passed a law removing it & replacing it with some flag that is now lost to time, people petitioned and got a referendum on section 1 (which enacted the new flag) but failed to include a referendum on section 2 (which abolished the old one). Referendum passed, new flag was abolished, but the old flag was also removed by the part of the law that was still in effect, causing us to revert to some old flag that hadn't been used for years.

At the time, I thought that was the dumbest possible thing people could do to the flag, but the current legislature (and the "Flag Change Committee," what the hell) has surpassed all expectations

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

...the design of the Southern flag is a question for that region only.

Can't formally sign it, but this has my full support. It's time for the citizens to get rid of that treasonous flag!

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

Oh god forbid someone got something wrong on the internet.

Well Poms tend to get a lot of things wrong regardless of it being on the net or not.

...Theodore Bilbo wannabes such as yourself fade into obscurity.

LOL.
I had to look up who this bloke was. So i'm a racist and white supremacist? So why am I dating someone of mixed race? Once again a Pom is wrong.