Citizens For Fiscal Responsability

[Bono]

I call upon all to vote against the Amendment to Remove the "Balanced" Budget Requirement, to ensure that the senate stops avoiding its responsabilities.
I welcome all to join me in this cause.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Senate would not be avoiding it's responsibilities. The Senate is allowed to introduce constitutional amendments for the people to vote on. It's in the constitution.

[Gabu]

I call upon all to vote against the Amendment to Remove the "Balanced" Budget Requirement, to ensure that the senate stops avoiding its responsabilities.

Avoiding its responsibilities to do what?  We would still have to make a budget, and the people are still more than welcome to vote out anyone who approves of a budget that the people don't like.

[CheeseWhiz]

I've already voted against it for this reason.  If the Senate thinks it's too much, replace it with something less extreme and I'll consider it, but don’t just scratch it, that's just plain lazy.

[Gabu]

Responsibility to produce a balanced budget.  By gutting the requirement, we are avoiding our responsibilities by reducing them.  That's what he was referring to, evidently.

Since when does the Senate have a responsibility (by which I mean a moral one, not a legal one) to produce a balanced budget?  Our responsibility is to produce a budget that allocates money in what we feel is the best fashion for both the needs of government agencies and for the people of Atlasia.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If the Senate thinks it's too much, replace it with something less extreme

An attempt to do that was voted down

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No, lazy would have been to have just jacked up taxes.

[CheeseWhiz]

If the Senate thinks it's too much, replace it with something less extreme

An attempt to do that was voted down

So try, try, try again.  The Senate didn't like that idea, so make up a new one, but I will never, I repeat never, support getting rid of the Senate’s constitutional responsibility to the people to get us out of debt.

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No, lazy would have been to have just jacked up taxes.
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Which we're going to have to do after awhile if we don’t start cutting programs.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So try, try, try again.

Interest in the idea died at that point for some reason

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Which, IIRC, was added to the constitution via a constitutional amendment.

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We could always try to help get the economy off it's feet. Funny that no one's actually suggested that yet.

[Jake]

Whether or not it's a moral responsibility is up for debate, I suppose.  I was referring to legal responsibility, which we had until we tried to get rid of it.  What exactly is so hard to understand about that?

And which we didn't have until about ten months ago.

[CheeseWhiz]

Interest in the idea died at that point for some reason

That’s where the word “lazy” comes in   I’m only kidding, I don’t know if I could have come up with anything, either, but I certainly would have tried.  We elect you guys to represent us in the Senate, and to make smart and well informed decisions, not to take short cuts

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Okay…  And your point would be?  It was a good amendment, and I don’t support it’s repeal.  Why does it matter if it was an amendment or not?

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I’m sorry, I don’t quite understand…  What are you trying to say here?

[WiseGuy]

I obviously support this.

Me too.

[CheeseWhiz]

I obviously support this.

Me too.

Then get out to the Midwest polls and vote against it, my good man

[MasterJedi]

The only way to get a balanced budget budget is to gut many things completly out which I will not support as well as most people won't support.

Nothing says that we can't try and balance the budget even with this amendment passed, just that we don't have to destroy the government to try and get it balanced.

[MasterJedi]

And voting against this amendment is bad, here are some of the things that the more radical libertarian members are proposing to do so that we can balance the budget.



Foreign Aid Reduction Bill

1. The budget of the International Assistance Programs division of the State Department shall be reduced to $3 billion immediately upon the passage of this bill.


CHAINSAW BUDGET SAVINGS BILLS

1.  The Elimination of Medicaid Act :
a. Over the next eight months (RL years), the budget for federal budget for Medicaid shall be cut by 12.5%.
b. All acts pertaining to the Medicaid program are to be repealed at the end of this program.
c. $200 million per budget cycle shall be dedicated to assisting the the states in providing their own programs, should they choose to do so.

2. The Department of Education Budget Reduction Act

a. The Federal Department of Education shall have its budget slashed by 90%, starting this cycle. State aid to education shall also be slashed 90%.
b. The Treasury Department will determine how these cuts are enacted.

3.  The Elimination of the Department of Commerce Act

a. The Department of Commerce is hereby eliminated.
b. Any laws relating to the Department of Commerce are repealed.

4. The Elimination of the Department of Housing and Urban Development Act

a. The Department of Housing and Urban Development is hereby eliminated.
b. Any laws relating to the Department of Housing and Urban Development are repealed.

5. Department of Defense Budget Reduction Act

 All non-emergency spending initiatives in the Department of Defense shall have their budgets reduced by 5%.

6. Office of Personell Management Budget Reduction Act

The budget of the Office of Personnel Management shall be slashed 15%.

7.  Department of Agriculture Budget Reduction Act
The budget of the Department of Agriculture shall be slashed 75%.

8. Environmental Protection Agency Budget Reduction Act
The budget of the Environmental Protection Agency shall be slashed 50%.

9. NASA Auction Act
a. the Federal Government shall offer the civilian portion of the National Aeronautics and Space Agency for auction to bidding individuals, foundations, and corporations in the United States.
b. if NASA as a whole is to be placed on auction, the starting bid shall be $10 billion; if it is to be auctioned piece-by-piece, the combined total of starting bids shall be $10 billion.
 
10. Department of Labor Budget Reduction Act
The budget for the Department of Labor shall be slashed 50%.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We elect you guys to represent us in the Senate, and to make smart and well informed decisions, not to take short cuts

Getting rid of the requirement for a balanced budget is well-informed. A lot of the knee-jerk opposition to it clearly isn't.

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IIRC it was an ammendment to the old constitution that was then incorporated into the new one. Or something like that. Bah. Someonelse will know better.
Point is, that a lot of the arguement against getting rid of the requirement seems to be a little sacred cow-ish.

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The result of balancing the budget at the moment would be a disaster for the economy and for the nation at large (in several different ways). Realising this is why so many of us (including me) changed our minds on this issue.

I should also add that I have several ideas to cut down significantly on waste at federal government level, without resulting in a huge fall in the quality of services.
Something else to note; when money is simply cut from a project or department and so on  (and this often applies to the private sector as well) what gets cut isn't the red tape or the over-staffing (yes, I have no problem saying that that goes on) or the bureaucratic waste... it's the frontline services.

[CheeseWhiz]

The only way to get a balanced budget budget is to gut many things completly out which I will not support as well as most people won't support.

So, which would you rather have: Losing some of your programs?  Or being billions of dollars in debt?  We have to make sacrifices, all of us.

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Yes, but it allows you to procrastinate without much trouble at all, which is difficult to do now, which is how it should be.

[Sam Spade]

Whether or not it's a moral responsibility is up for debate, I suppose.  I was referring to legal responsibility, which we had until we tried to get rid of it.  What exactly is so hard to understand about that?

And which we didn't have until about ten months ago.

Ah, times used to be different. 

It was basically Jake and I who designed the budget amendment specifications ten months ago. 

That's sort of the reason why I've stayed out of the whole debate (in addition, my position as GM makes me do so)

[MasterJedi]

Yes, but it allows you to procrastinate without much trouble at all, which is difficult to do now, which is how it should be.

Procrastinate? We'd have to have a 2/3 vote to do that and I only voted that way this time because we're screwed if this doesn't pass. Is this your way to get rid of those programs? (Don't expect an answer to this)

[CheeseWhiz]

And voting against this amendment is bad, here are some of the things that the more radical libertarian members are proposing to do so that we can balance the budget.

It is your opinion that it is bad, and if you want to supply me with the reasons you think it’s bad, tell me.  This is what I’m doing for you, and I expect no less from the supporters of the amendment.

I am a radical libertarian, so you can guess I support many of those cuts, while some do need to have some minor adjustments.  And even if you don’t support what they’re doing, at least they’re trying.

[MasterJedi]

And voting against this amendment is bad, here are some of the things that the more radical libertarian members are proposing to do so that we can balance the budget.

It is your opinion that it is bad, and if you want to supply me with the reasons you think it’s bad, tell me.  This is what I’m doing for you, and I expect no less from the supporters of the amendment.

I am a radical libertarian, so you can guess I support many of those cuts, while some do need to have some minor adjustments.  And even if you don’t support what they’re doing, at least they’re trying.

Balancing the budget by destroying the economy isn't a good idea and I you notice that this will do just that. At least trying? Al's bills will be trying and more than likely get something done without destroying the economy as said above.

[Bono]

And voting against this amendment is bad, here are some of the things that the more radical libertarian members are proposing to do so that we can balance the budget.

It is your opinion that it is bad, and if you want to supply me with the reasons you think it’s bad, tell me.  This is what I’m doing for you, and I expect no less from the supporters of the amendment.

I am a radical libertarian, so you can guess I support many of those cuts, while some do need to have some minor adjustments.  And even if you don’t support what they’re doing, at least they’re trying.

Balancing the budget by destroying the economy isn't a good idea and I you notice that this will do just that. At least trying? Al's bills will be trying and more than likely get something done without destroying the economy as said above.

Cutting government spending isn't destroying the economy you keynesian.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We could always make it official Senate procedure to try to spend money responsibly. And so on. Scratching the requirement for a balanced budget certainly doesn't mean we can't limit ourselves in more appropriate ways.

[CheeseWhiz]

Getting rid of the requirement for a balanced budget is well-informed. A lot of the knee-jerk opposition to it clearly isn't.

I don’t see what basis you have to make that claim.  You said yourself that people lost interest when they had to keep working, and I don’t think it’s wise to pass something because some of you got discouraged.  I don’t mean to be rude, (I never do,) but taking short cuts isn’t what we elected you to do.

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Like the argument for getting rid of Public Schools, the CPS, Child Labor laws, etc.?  Yeah, maybe it is, but I think we should trust the people, but we should never ever trust the Government, that’s why I’m a Libertarian

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That’s why you guys can waive the Balanced Budget requirement with a two-thirds vote.

And I would support this, that’s exactly why I said some of DanielX’s proposals may need some adjustments, but overall are a good idea.

[A18]

And voting against this amendment is bad, here are some of the things that the more radical libertarian members are proposing to do so that we can balance the budget.



Foreign Aid Reduction Bill

1. The budget of the International Assistance Programs division of the State Department shall be reduced to $3 billion immediately upon the passage of this bill.


CHAINSAW BUDGET SAVINGS BILLS

1.  The Elimination of Medicaid Act :
a. Over the next eight months (RL years), the budget for federal budget for Medicaid shall be cut by 12.5%.
b. All acts pertaining to the Medicaid program are to be repealed at the end of this program.
c. $200 million per budget cycle shall be dedicated to assisting the the states in providing their own programs, should they choose to do so.

2. The Department of Education Budget Reduction Act

a. The Federal Department of Education shall have its budget slashed by 90%, starting this cycle. State aid to education shall also be slashed 90%.
b. The Treasury Department will determine how these cuts are enacted.

3.  The Elimination of the Department of Commerce Act

a. The Department of Commerce is hereby eliminated.
b. Any laws relating to the Department of Commerce are repealed.

4. The Elimination of the Department of Housing and Urban Development Act

a. The Department of Housing and Urban Development is hereby eliminated.
b. Any laws relating to the Department of Housing and Urban Development are repealed.

5. Department of Defense Budget Reduction Act

 All non-emergency spending initiatives in the Department of Defense shall have their budgets reduced by 5%.

6. Office of Personell Management Budget Reduction Act

The budget of the Office of Personnel Management shall be slashed 15%.

7.  Department of Agriculture Budget Reduction Act
The budget of the Department of Agriculture shall be slashed 75%.

8. Environmental Protection Agency Budget Reduction Act
The budget of the Environmental Protection Agency shall be slashed 50%.

9. NASA Auction Act
a. the Federal Government shall offer the civilian portion of the National Aeronautics and Space Agency for auction to bidding individuals, foundations, and corporations in the United States.
b. if NASA as a whole is to be placed on auction, the starting bid shall be $10 billion; if it is to be auctioned piece-by-piece, the combined total of starting bids shall be $10 billion.
 
10. Department of Labor Budget Reduction Act
The budget for the Department of Labor shall be slashed 50%.

Excellent plan!

[CheeseWhiz]

We could always make it official Senate procedure to try to spend money responsibly. And so on. Scratching the requirement for a balanced budget certainly doesn't mean we can't limit ourselves in more appropriate ways.

Okay, let me ask you this:

If you can waive the balanced budget requirement with a two-thirds vote on it, what other reason would there be to get rid of it then to be able to skip out on balancing the budget when you don’t have two-thirds supporting waiving the requirement?  This isn’t meant to be rhetorical, but I really think that this is all this amendments going to change.