UK General Discussion: 2019. Blackadder goes Brexit.

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New PM, new thread.

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May is in the unique position as somebody almost universally judged as a failure, and most likely to be missed very soon by comparison.

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-caretaker-pm-stop-no-deal-brexit-a9064616.html

Jeremy Corbyn is leaving open the option of supporting an alternative caretaker prime minister, as he vows to do “everything necessary to stop a disastrous no-deal Brexit”.

In a speech in the midlands, the Labour leader will not rule out backing a different stopgap, after the Liberal Democrats and rebel Tories dismissed putting him in No 10 to avert a crash-out on 31 October.

Aides said he remained focused on seeking to persuade MPs to back him, if Boris Johnson can be toppled in a no-confidence vote – but described it only as the “simplest and most democratic” solution.

Is he trying to go 1929 National Government or something? You know, a Labour-controlled cabinet with a token "centrist" Tory as the new Ramsay Macdonald?

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Ruth Davidson has resigned as Scottish Tory leader.

Also, Lord Young of Cookham i.e. George Young, former Cabinet minister, has resigned as a junior whip over this.

... Honestly didn't know that a thatcher cabinet minister still had a government position. Don't you love the Lords?

Thatcher's Scotland and Defence Secretary was George Younger. George Young was Major's last Transport Secretary. Still been in Parliament in some capacity since 1974, though.

actually I was thinking of David Lord Young, the Industry Secretary who replaced Tebbitt, but thanks. Weird how common the name is for Tories.

The party of Young people.

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I know "whipping" is used to discipline votes, but I'm clueless about the taking away thing.

Meaning you're suspended from the parliamentary party.

It can go the other way too. Until 1972 Ulster Unionist were taking the conservative parliamentary whip, essentially functioning as the Tory branch in the Northern Ireland. They refused the whip in protest against Heath's policy regarding the conflict there, effectively depriving him of the votes he needed to form a coalition after February 1974 election produced a hung parliament.

The 21 includes the father of the House, kicked out after 49 years, some who were in cabinet just a couple of months ago like Philip Hammond, and Churchill's grandson, Nicholas Soames.

Clark also was a minister through both the Thacher and Major premiership. 

And during the Cameron ministry (as Lord Chancellor, then minister w/o portfolio).

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Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

I don't think BoJo's and Rees-Mogg's privileged little brains are able to fully accept things may not go their way at the end. People like them were raised to believe this s**t.

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I must say it's quote impressive for someone to the the Prime Minister for little over the month and lose first major vote and your majority.

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I unironically wish Michael Heseltine was still an MP, thus available to lead the government of national unity.

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Yeah, I hope the myth of BoJo and Cummings as strategic masterminds is dead and buried now. The expulsion of the rebels is especially baffling, since as long as they had something to lose as Tory MPs they might have been reasoned with (at least to try to prevent a no-confidence vote) but now they're entirely free to topple BoJo and install PM Ken Clarke or whomever. BoJo has no way of actually getting the election he desperately wants, and now he has no way to force through a no-deal Brexit. He really shot himself in the foot. That seems to be a pattern with #populist leaders this Summer, after Salvini's equally hilarious own-goal.

The odds of Labour backing a Clarke government are roughly zero

I thought Corbyn had already tentatively agreed to such an arrangement if it becomes necessary to stop no deal?

Obviously it would be difficult for either Labour or LibDem leader to head such a government. It's kind of like in 1930 with MacDonald with his small following of "National Labour" heading a national government dominated by the Tories.

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What a disgrace.  A minority is holding hostage & completely paralyzing the government.  The UK needs serious constitutional reform if and when this ever ends.

So the government is holding itself hostage, since they're the ones in minority now.

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Speaking of possible national unity government, the combined force of the Tory dissenders that had their whip withdrawn, Labour and Liberal Democrats posses only 284 votes, which is well short of the required majority of 326. Such a coalition would require additional votes from other groups, and this is where it becomes tricky. The SNP has a substantial numbers (35 MPs), but it's the party that's fundamentally opposed to preserving the Union, and thus a strange candidate. A "confidence and supply" could be a diffrent matter, though.

So, if we were to add remaining non-separatist, pro-European parties to the mix, we'll still have only 298 votes. There are also a few independents (discounting the Tory dissidents), but I dare not to weight on this here.

And there's another problem with the Tory dissidents: they're not really a monolithic group and some are already expressing interest to get back on as soon as possible.

At this point I think it's not impossible for Boris to hang on just like May had, despite losing a vote after vote, simply because the opposition has no means of forming a viable government, and I don't see anybody wanting a snap election at this point.

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(1) Boris could threaten to deny Royal Assent for the no-deal bill, until an election has been called, which Labour wont call until royal assent has been granted.  

Didn't know it works like this. So basically the Prime Minister can deny Royal Assent to a bill that was passed by the Commons?

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Speaking of possible national unity government, the combined force of the Tory dissenders that had their whip withdrawn, Labour and Liberal Democrats posses only 284 votes, which is well short of the required majority of 326. Such a coalition would require additional votes from other groups, and this is where it becomes tricky. The SNP has a substantial numbers (35 MPs), but it's the party that's fundamentally opposed to preserving the Union, and thus a strange candidate. A "confidence and supply" could be a diffrent matter, though.

So, if we were to add remaining non-separatist, pro-European parties to the mix, we'll still have only 298 votes. There are also a few independents (discounting the Tory dissidents), but I dare not to weight on this here.

And there's another problem with the Tory dissidents: they're not really a monolithic group and some are already expressing interest to get back on as soon as possible.

At this point I think it's not impossible for Boris to hang on just like May had, despite losing a vote after vote, simply because the opposition has no means of forming a viable government, and I don't see anybody wanting a snap election at this point.

The SNP would have no problem supporting a national unity government and have made clear that thye'd be glad to do so (although they among the opposition parties would most prefer a new election). The conflict is over who would lead that government (Corbyn is not an acceptable choice to the LDs or the ex-Tories, and most Labourites would reject a non-Labour option), not who would join it.

Thanks for clarifying on the SNP.

Also, I've heard Harriet Harman is being floated as a possible PM, which would satisfy the Labour and she'd be more acceptable to others as an elder stateswoman that doesn't hold any party leadership position.

I think that a national unity government with one of the party leaders as PM simply wouldn't work. It can be either a senior dissenting Tory, like Clarke (though I agree with Lumine chances doesn't seem to good), or an elder statesman from the opposition.

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According to numerous sources, a Tory MP from Gunganshire Sir Nigel Binks, is about to propose a renewal of the Treachery Act of 1940 to deal with the rebel MPs.

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Not without triggering an even bigger constitutional crisis... the bill was ruled not to require Queen's Consent and Royal Assent hasn't been refused since Queen Anne was on the throne.

Yeah, I figured as much, I doubt the Queen would even follow his advice anyway.

Well, the best he can hope for is a no-confidence vote, on himself lol

Here's an idea: if BoJo disregards the constitutional convention, the parliament should to the same by passing a bill of attainder and be done with him, in a very literal sense.

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Like the Black Rod he has the door slammed in his face by the Commissioners and must kiss the handle three times before they let him in.

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I have full confidence in leadership abilities of Jacon Rees Mogg to get the goverment's agenda through the House.

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To quote one particularly distinguished parliamentarian from the past:

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil’d this sacred place, and turn’d the Lord’s temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress’d, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

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After he stoods down, we must ask John Bercow to become a moderator on the Atlas.

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Looks like the Hobbit in the speaker's chair would rather retire to the shire than risk losing his seat in the election

I'll give you C- for the effort.

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We don't have a Presidential system. The Prime Minister is just an ordinary government employee and therefore has no legal immunity beyond certain protections from prosecution for libel while debating in the Commons chamber. Were Johnson to break the law he would be prosecuted and (potentially) imprisoned the same as any other private citizen would be, and if this happens I think it would be possible that the Queen would be obliged to remove him as PM without a vote of no confidence needed.

It's quite paradoxical, since in many ways the PM is more powerful than the U.S. President, since she or he not only heads the government (executive), but also runs the legislative process via being a party leader. Not always, as we've seen now,

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Just to think past PMs were resigning after losing far more trivial votes. I mean Rosebery stepped down after the government lost a vote in committee on army supply by seven votes.

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Uhh, I’m sorry, with everything that’s been happening, how the f**k are the Tories actually gaining in the polls?

because risking the country to a UK Hugo Chavez would be far far worse than Hard Brexit. Before you scoff at the comparision, here:

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992

https://www.cnsnews.com/video/flashback-corbyn-calls-hugo-chavez-absolute-legend-every-way

https://labourlist.org/2013/03/thank-you-hugo-

^ Please stop posting in this thread.  You’re embarrassing the rest of us Americans.

Yes, let's restore some previous quality to this thread.

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BoJo could try to pull Balfour by going to the palace, tendering his resignation and "advising" the Queen to invite the Leader of the Opposition, since his party is unable to fork a working government. But of course that would prevent him from pulling the "they forced us out!" card.

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A few less whisky-breakfasts would do our politics the world of good right now, I think.

An outright ban of alcohol in the Commons even more.

Lazare Carnot and Saint-Just had an ongoing dispute regarding alcohol in the National Convention. Saint-Just, who was against it, lost the argument, as well as his head.