UK General Discussion: 2019. Blackadder goes Brexit.

[J. J.]

The 21 includes the father of the House, kicked out after 49 years, some who were in cabinet just a couple of months ago like Philip Hammond, and Churchill's grandson, Nicholas Soames.

Clark also was a minister through both the Thacher and Major premiership. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The British are currently suffering the curse of living in interesting times

Yes, thank you for that original and insightful observation, it had not occurred to anyone before.

[Progressive Pessimist]

There are now more Independent MPs (of various descriptors) than at any time since the modern party system emerged in parliament over two centuries ago. There are 40 such MPs even if you exclude Elphicke, which means they overtake the SNP as the third biggest group in the HoC.

The British are currently suffering the curse of living in interesting times

They are at least helping me feel better about our situation here in the United States. We have a chance to rectify it next year. The UK may very well be screwed for the long haul.

[Tintrlvr]

There are now more Independent MPs (of various descriptors) than at any time since the modern party system emerged in parliament over two centuries ago. There are 40 such MPs even if you exclude Elphicke, which means they overtake the SNP as the third biggest group in the HoC.

Change UK is clearly a political party even if a moribund one, so I think we should say 35 instead of 40 "true" independents.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I know "whipping" is used to discipline votes, but I'm clueless about the taking away thing.

Meaning you're suspended from the parliamentary party.

It can go the other way too. Until 1972 Ulster Unionist were taking the conservative parliamentary whip, essentially functioning as the Tory branch in the Northern Ireland. They refused the whip in protest against Heath's policy regarding the conflict there, effectively depriving him of the votes he needed to form a coalition after February 1974 election produced a hung parliament.

The 21 includes the father of the House, kicked out after 49 years, some who were in cabinet just a couple of months ago like Philip Hammond, and Churchill's grandson, Nicholas Soames.

Clark also was a minister through both the Thacher and Major premiership. 

And during the Cameron ministry (as Lord Chancellor, then minister w/o portfolio).

[Joe Republic]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

DOMINIC CUMMINGS, STRATEGIC MASTERMIND

[Indy Texas]

The EU should refuse to negotiate until Parliament is reopened.

Then the UK will just pull out.

The will of the people was expressed in the referendum, like it or not. 

(I am sure that Trump is asking if he can prorogue Congress.)

The will of the people was expressed once multiple Years Ago by a razor-thin margin. If we are truly concerned about the will of the people, hold another referendum, as polling indicates brexit would probably be repealed.

It always astounds me that the people who just want brexit for its own sake go on about the will of the people and democracy, and yet at the same time our Foursquare of against allowing the people to express what appears to be a majority in favor of second thoughts and regrets.

Oh no, they cry. We can't go back and forth and have a referendum on leaving every couple years. Who will think of the stability? Yeah, sure. Where's your Devotion to democracy in the will of the people now? With that kind of the will of the people binding Nation forevermore, we would still have prohibition in effect.

Just drop it pretense of caring about democracy. Supporters want brexit for brexit sake, and will fight to keep it anyway possible no matter how much of a klusterfuk it is turning into

If a society chooses to use a referendum, it better abide by the results.  It is not a pretense.   

The people made the decision, live with it. 

The referendum was on whether or not to leave. It provided no information whatsoever about what the terms of leaving would be, other than the blatantly dishonest nonsense peddled by the Conservatives and UKIP about how it would be "a great deal."

The proper thing to do would have been to negotiate a deal with the EU and then put the deal to a referendum.

It's clear that the British people do not want to leave on the terms that are possible, and if Brexit supporters are so confident, they should have no issues with letting The People sign off on the finished product.

[Pericles]

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1169027053691330561?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw...
lmao

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

I don't think BoJo's and Rees-Mogg's privileged little brains are able to fully accept things may not go their way at the end. People like them were raised to believe this s**t.

[Joe Republic]

Tory Ayes (21):

Guto Bebb
Steve Brine
Alistair Burt

this cannot be real. these cannot be real people. george lucas-ass country

Guto Bebb’s wife is named Esyllt Bebb, ftr.

[Zinneke]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

Jokes aside it is actually because I don't think there will be more rebels.

[YL]

https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/ has now been updated.  Note that this counts the Deputy Speakers as members of their parties when they don't vote, so in terms of practical Commons arithmetic there are 288 Tories and 245 Labour.

The 36 Independents are made up of:
- 21 ex-Tories who lost the whip yesterday
- 5 MPs, four ex-Labour and one ex-Tory, who form "The Independents" (which is only a group, not a party, not to be confused with "The Independent Group for Change", which is a party).
- Nick Boles, ex-Tory who resigned the whip earlier in the year
- Frank Field, ex-Labour who recently announced that he intended to contest the next election for the "Birkenhead Social Justice Party"
- Ian Austin, ex-Labour who votes with the Government on Brexit
- Ivan Lewis, ex-Labour who also now tends to vote with the Government on Brexit
- Stephen Lloyd, ex-Lib Dem
- Chris Williamson and Kelvin Hopkins, suspended Labour MPs
- Charlie Elphicke, suspended Tory MP
- Sylvia Hermon, former UUP MP for North Down who won in 2010, 2015 and 2017 as an Independent
- Jared O'Mara, ex-Labour who was going to resign but seems to have changed his mind but still didn't vote yesterday

[Pericles]

"There were at least four individuals who were still doubtful who changed their position to being supportive and voting with us on the back of Jacob’s performance. He was deemed to be arrogant, out of touch and I think the way in which he treated some of the interventions was a red rag to bull in many cases."-Guto Bebb
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/04/brexit-crisis-boris-johnson-mps-bill-blocking-no-deal-eu-no-deal-parliament-politics-live?page=with:block-5d6f82c98f08b2e15bc1a01c#block-5d6f82c98f08b2e15bc1a01c

[GoTfan]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

DOMINIC CUMMINGS, STRATEGIC MASTERMIND

All part of BoJo's master plan for world domination, of course.

[YL]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

I imagine the idea is that once an election has been forced they will be replaced in their mostly safe Tory constituencies with True Believers who will do Johnson's bidding.  It might not be as simple as that, but I don't feel very confident that Johnson with most of the media behind him and a divided opposition can't win.

I think the Lib Dems ought to consider standing aside if they choose to run as independents, partly to encourage them to do so.  Labour standing aside is less likely to be helpful and might actually be counterproductive in most of these constituencies, as well as more controversial.

[Zinneke]

So if I'm a soft Brexiteer Tory what party do I vote for next election?

That's where BJ's gamble may pay off. He can play it as Corbyn vs his hard Brexit and polls showed us in the last leadership election that Corbyn is what unites the Tory party, and probably electorate.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I must say it's quote impressive for someone to the the Prime Minister for little over the month and lose first major vote and your majority.

[Flyersfan232]

I must say it's quote impressive for someone to the the Prime Minister for little over the month and lose first major vote and your majority.

if he a elections he likely to gain it back pretty soon he not may who I now believe might have deliberately screw up brexit

[DaWN]

I'm currently at the Remain rally in Westminster (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm with a family member who wanted to go, wasn't my choice)

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott (which is a lol in itself), who's main theme of her speech seems to be 'Aren't I great'

We're really not making this easy for ourselves

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott

Oh, this canard

[DaWN]

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott

Oh, this canard

A week of platitudes does not erase three years of inaction

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott

Oh, this canard

A week of platitudes does not erase three years of inaction

What would have been adequate action for a party that was committed in principle to respecting the referendum result? Or is having been committed in principle to respecting the referendum result until it became clear that the two realistic long-term options were crash-out or revocation enough in itself to still make a party "Brexit-supporting" now that that's become clear?

[DaWN]

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott

Oh, this canard

A week of platitudes does not erase three years of inaction

What would have been adequate action for a party that was committed in principle to respecting the referendum result? Or is having been committed in principle to respecting the referendum result until it became clear that the two realistic long-term options were crash-out or revocation enough in itself to still make a party "Brexit-supporting" now that that's become clear?

I expected the opposition to oppose. It did not. Thus, that it has now decided to do so as it has become politically expedient does not erase over three years of Little Englander Labour.

Now if the Labour party does the right thing (for the wrong reasons of course) I'm not going to say no, but their inaction and capitulation isn't going to be forgotten.

[DaWN]

Anyway, most of these speakers have been shockingly uninspiring. Thornberry has been the best speaker but her actual track record isn't great. Sadiq Khan wasn't bad either but he was only up for about thirty seconds before buggering off. Don't blame him.