Atlasian Civil Liberties Union

[lfromnj]

Private prisons are a problem. The person going to prison doesn't have a choice and the prison has no incentive to reduce recidivism. But prison guard unions arguably do just as much with regards to lobbying in creating a mass incarceration culture. There is no reason to support prison guard unions while opposing private prisons.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1095796016681558?journalCode=nlfa

Unfortunately this article isn't available in full but it gives a good intro

For example public unions spend much more money lobbying overall for stricter punishment than private prisons do. If the point of 15 is to oppose mass incarceration than clearly opposing prison guard unions is a good idea.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Private prisons are a problem. The person going to prison doesn't have a choice and the prison has no incentive to reduce recidivism. But prison guard unions arguably do just as much with regards to lobbying in creating a mass incarceration culture. There is no reason to support prison guard unions while opposing private prisons.

This group is solely about civil liberties. Private Prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison Guard unions are not.

[lfromnj]

Private prisons are a problem. The person going to prison doesn't have a choice and the prison has no incentive to reduce recidivism. But prison guard unions arguably do just as much with regards to lobbying in creating a mass incarceration culture. There is no reason to support prison guard unions while opposing private prisons.

This group is solely about civil liberties. Private Prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison Guard unions are not.

You don't think prison guard unions dont lobby for sh**ttier policies for prisoners to "protect" the guards? The same goes to police unions.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Private prisons are a problem. The person going to prison doesn't have a choice and the prison has no incentive to reduce recidivism. But prison guard unions arguably do just as much with regards to lobbying in creating a mass incarceration culture. There is no reason to support prison guard unions while opposing private prisons.

This group is solely about civil liberties. Private Prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison Guard unions are not.

You don't think prison guard unions dont lobby for sh**ttier policies for prisoners to "protect" the guards. The same goes to police unions.

That's not the point. The point is that prison guard unions have nothing to do with Civil Liberties. If anything, as a Civil Liberties group we should support people's right to organise if they so wish.

[lfromnj]

I am not arguing for an immediate ban of prison guard unions with regards to this organization. I am just arguing for the fact that we should generally be opposing them and any attempt to increase their influence over our government.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

I do see a contradiction inherent to adopting this change while keeping "freedom of association" in our 15 Points.  I believe that as a group we can fight regressive policies while supporting the general right to organize, but excluding support for certain sector unions is trying to have it both ways.  The same goes for police unions.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

I am not arguing for an immediate ban of prison guard unions with regards to this organization. I am just arguing for the fact that we should generally be opposing them and any attempt to increase their influence over our government.

Need I point you to bullet point number 3. We support the absolute right of association. Which means we support the right of workers to freely organise if they wish. So opposing prison unions breaks one of our current broad points.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Private prisons are a problem. The person going to prison doesn't have a choice and the prison has no incentive to reduce recidivism. But prison guard unions arguably do just as much with regards to lobbying in creating a mass incarceration culture. There is no reason to support prison guard unions while opposing private prisons.

This group is solely about civil liberties. Private Prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison Guard unions are not.

While I personally dont like that there are prison unions and agree they contribute to overcriminalization, I do subscribe to the belief that the mere formation of a union is freedom of association (peaceable assembly to exercise rights). I do think association should also be construed to protect an employer's decision not to bargain with unions and definitely think monopoly exclusive bargaining agreements and agency fees are an affront to association rights as well, but that's not the proposal.

So I would vote no on adding prison unions in that I believe the ACLU should protect their right to peaceably associate as prison guards even if it is to lobby for horrible laws we oppose. Protecting freedom means protecting bad (but lawful) uses of freedom, including the right of prison guards to collectively lobby for wrongfully imprisoning children.

[lfromnj]

Here are our broad 15 Points, as written by Mr. R:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and a general disapproval of prison guard unions

I wonder if this fixes people concerns about the association part. Technically if we are speaking employers should have the right to choose who they associate with and that may include not associating with people in a union. It is a bit weirder when it does come to the government unions.

Another argument is that if we ban private prisons is that we are banning a group of people for being paid for making a prison. Meanwhile with prison unions if we ban them we are banning the government from paying people who are working in a prison union.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

x AustralianSwingVoter (I accidentally deleted my original post where I joined)

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Here are our broad 15 Points, as written by Mr. R:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and a general disapproval of prison guard unions

I wonder if this fixes people concerns about the association part. Technically if we are speaking employers should have the right to choose who they associate with and that may include not associating with people in a union. It is a bit weirder when it does come to the government unions.

Prison guard unions don't belong in our platform. The points should be broad aims, and a disapproval of one random union doesn't belong.

[lfromnj]

Here are our broad 15 Points, as written by Mr. R:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and a general disapproval of prison guard unions

I wonder if this fixes people concerns about the association part. Technically if we are speaking employers should have the right to choose who they associate with and that may include not associating with people in a union. It is a bit weirder when it does come to the government unions.

Prison guard unions don't belong in our platform. The points should be broad aims, and a disapproval of one random union doesn't belong.

Private prisons house like 7% of Prisoners. They are like Israel and their policy towards Palestinians. sh**tty but definitely over criticized compared to other problems. If you don't want to focus on small things we should just delete the private prison thing altogether.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Here are our broad 15 Points, as written by Mr. R:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and a general disapproval of prison guard unions

I wonder if this fixes people concerns about the association part. Technically if we are speaking employers should have the right to choose who they associate with and that may include not associating with people in a union. It is a bit weirder when it does come to the government unions.

Prison guard unions don't belong in our platform. The points should be broad aims, and a disapproval of one random union doesn't belong.

Private prisons house like 7% of Prisoners. They are like Israel and their policy towards Palestinians. sh**tty but definitely over criticized compared to other problems. If you don't want to focus on small things we should just delete the private prison thing altogether.

Private prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison unions aren't.

[lfromnj]

Here are our broad 15 Points, as written by Mr. R:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and a general disapproval of prison guard unions

I wonder if this fixes people concerns about the association part. Technically if we are speaking employers should have the right to choose who they associate with and that may include not associating with people in a union. It is a bit weirder when it does come to the government unions.

Prison guard unions don't belong in our platform. The points should be broad aims, and a disapproval of one random union doesn't belong.

Private prisons house like 7% of Prisoners. They are like Israel and their policy towards Palestinians. sh**tty but definitely over criticized compared to other problems. If you don't want to focus on small things we should just delete the private prison thing altogether.

Private prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison unions aren't.

In what way are private prisons a threat but prison unions aren't?

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Here are our broad 15 Points, as written by Mr. R:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and a general disapproval of prison guard unions

I wonder if this fixes people concerns about the association part. Technically if we are speaking employers should have the right to choose who they associate with and that may include not associating with people in a union. It is a bit weirder when it does come to the government unions.

Prison guard unions don't belong in our platform. The points should be broad aims, and a disapproval of one random union doesn't belong.

Private prisons house like 7% of Prisoners. They are like Israel and their policy towards Palestinians. sh**tty but definitely over criticized compared to other problems. If you don't want to focus on small things we should just delete the private prison thing altogether.

Private prisons are a threat to civil liberties. Prison unions aren't.

In what way are private prisons a threat but prison unions aren't?

Private unions (i.e. a free association of people) aren't inherently bad.  In the case of prison unions, I believe that many of their policy preferences are, but the ACLU should still defend the right to organize as passionately as we fight their proposals for mandatory minimums or harsh sentencing.  The real-life ACLU routinely defends the rights of people they disagree with, and we shouldn't be any different.

[Mr. Reactionary]

The concern with private prisons is that we are cloaking non-government actors in government authority in regards to the deprivation of rights of a citizen. Given that the state actor requirement for civil lawsuits to enjoin or seek compensation for civil rights/bill of rights violation is unclear on the status of private contractor prisons, those prisons could potentially escape from Sec. 1983/Bivvens lawsuits encouraging further abuse of the rights of prisoners. Government prisons are also subject to FOIA, Employee grievance protections, and public auditing making it easier to expose abuse within.

I fully support the association rights of shareholders to form private prison companies and lobby to allow for the use of private prisons. That wont happen in Atlasia since private prisons are prohibited for federal prisoners and are being phased out in all 3 Regions so they wouldnt make any money.

[lfromnj]

If the government can refuse to contract to private prisons solely for the fact they are private, they can refuse to provide jobs to people in a Union.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

If the government can refuse to contract to private prisons solely for the fact they are private, they can refuse to provide jobs to people in a Union.

Refusing to provide jobs to union members is precisely the violation of civil liberties this organisation should and would oppose.

[Goldwater]

If have have an section of the platform denouncing prison guard unions because of the policies they advocate for, why not have one about police unions? Or a section denouncing evach advocacy group we disagree with? IMO, this proposed change opens up that can of worms and would be inappropriate to have in our platform.

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I will open a vote on the 15 Points and Lfromnj's amendment tomorrow night.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

A vote is now open.  Members have 48 hours to vote on the two platforms.

Platform 1:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons

[   ] Yes
[   ] No
[   ] Abstain

Platform 2:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of the Press
3. Freedom of Association
4. Free Exercise of Religion and Freedom from the Establishment of Religion
5. Freedom to own and carry weapons
6. Freedom of privacy from unreasonable government searches
7. Freedom from eminent domain abuse
8. Freedom of Due Process of Law prior to having rights abridged
9. Rights of the Accused to fair processes
10. Freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishments
11. Right to bail and freedom from excessive fines
12. Freedom to travel without forfeiting rights
13. Right to equal treatment under the law
14. Criminal Reform that seeks to reduce incarceration and overcriminalization
15. Opposition to private prisons and prison unions

[   ] Yes
[   ] No
[   ] Abstain

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Platform 1:
[ X ] Yes
[   ] No
[   ] Abstain

Platform 2:
[   ] Yes
[ X ] No
[   ] Abstain

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Platform 1:
[ X ] Yes
[   ] No
[   ] Abstain

Platform 2:
[   ] Yes
[ X ] No
[   ] Abstain

[Sirius_]

Platform 1:
[ X ] Yes
[   ] No
[   ] Abstain

Platform 2:
[   ] Yes
[ X ] No
[   ] Abstain

[Goldwater]

Platform 1:
[X] Yes
[   ] No
[   ] Abstain

Platform 2:
[   ] Yes
[X] No
[   ] Abstain