Medicare to pay for some acupuncture

[dead0man]

and are considering paying for it for all old people

groan

Any fair review of the evidence for acupuncture answers the question the government is about to spend taxpayer money asking all over again: We already know that acupuncture is nothing more than an elaborate placebo and that it does not work, for anything. Thus, this effort is not justifiable based on any real need to do more research.  Here’s what SBM’s Steve Novella, MD, had to say in a Washington Post story on the subject:

“The whole thing is a big scam,” said Steven Novella, an assistant professor of neurology at the Yale School of Medicine and editor of the “Science-Based Medicine” website. “The only honest interpretation of the data is that acupuncture is a theatrical placebo.”    . . .

Novella said that the efficacy attributed to acupuncture in the 2018 review [referred to in the story] could easily be explained by various research biases and that no drug would be allowed on the market based on that level of proof.

“We never get that threshold of evidence that you need in medicine, where you get that persistent effect, and it’s replicable” across numerous studies, he said.

[Santander]

Great news. It's about time our people started getting some respect.

[Karpatsky]

I don't follow HHS, but if what is happening there is anything like what is happening in State, this is likely the result of a purge of competent people from the bureaucracy by political appointees determined on principle to sabotage government. This effect, more than anything that happens at the top of government, is the greatest threat posed by this administration to good governance in America.

[Mopsus]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

[Person Man]

and are considering paying for it for all old people

groan

Any fair review of the evidence for acupuncture answers the question the government is about to spend taxpayer money asking all over again: We already know that acupuncture is nothing more than an elaborate placebo and that it does not work, for anything. Thus, this effort is not justifiable based on any real need to do more research.  Here’s what SBM’s Steve Novella, MD, had to say in a Washington Post story on the subject:

“The whole thing is a big scam,” said Steven Novella, an assistant professor of neurology at the Yale School of Medicine and editor of the “Science-Based Medicine” website. “The only honest interpretation of the data is that acupuncture is a theatrical placebo.”    . . .

Novella said that the efficacy attributed to acupuncture in the 2018 review [referred to in the story] could easily be explained by various research biases and that no drug would be allowed on the market based on that level of proof.

“We never get that threshold of evidence that you need in medicine, where you get that persistent effect, and it’s replicable” across numerous studies, he said.

Who says that anyone or no one needs it? This could be actually be something that could be a good idea, a stupid idea meant to satisfy corruption,  or an evil idea meant to inflate the cost of Medicare and pit beneficiaries against the welfare of the rest of the population. It’s like Part D but dumber.

[Person Man]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

That’s an amazing new elevator pitch against the man who isn’t the man.

[Koharu]

Good. My dad believes it might help him, and at this point, that'd be better than him getting hooked on morphine again, which would still be at taxpayer expense.

[TDAS04]

I’m okay with this.

[dead0man]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

[Mopsus]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

[dead0man]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

I don't know, but it doesn't work as science has shown.  Like most everything else in "eastern medicine", it's old and doesn't work.  If it worked, the rest of us would have been using it for hundreds of years like we have with other, good ideas, that came out of the same part of the world (printing press and gunpowder to name two obvious ones).


I didn't know we were so anti-science here.

[Koharu]

Results

The benefits of acupuncture are sometimes difficult to measure, but many people find it helpful as a means to control a variety of painful conditions.

Several studies, however, indicate that some types of simulated acupuncture appear to work just as well as real acupuncture. There's also evidence that acupuncture works best in people who expect it to work.

Acupuncture has few side effects, so it may be worth a try if you're having trouble controlling pain with more-conventional methods.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/about/pac-20392763

As far as something that instigates positive results, whether they be placebo or not, I see no reason not to use it. Especially in the elderly, who often have struggled to find relief via other outlets.

This is much better than a lot of elective surgeries that are recommended by various physicians. I'm sorry you personally don't like it, but if it helps people feel better, that usually results in a net savings of money for the tax-payer.

[Mopsus]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

I don't know, but it doesn't work as science has shown.  Like most everything else in "eastern medicine", it's old and doesn't work.  If it worked, the rest of us would have been using it for hundreds of years like we have with other, good ideas, that came out of the same part of the world (printing press and gunpowder to name two obvious ones).


I didn't know we were so anti-science here.

The point is, you don't know if acupuncture works: you don't have any personal experience with it. But Science says it doesn't work, so even when other people do have positive personal experiences with the practice, you're obligated to dismiss their experience out of hand. Our predecessors didn't have the luxury of such a bias. They had to do what worked.

[dead0man]

Some people have "positive personal experiences" with lots of stupid sh**t that doesn't work.  Do you think that argument works for astrology?  Or copper bracelets?  Or essential oils?  Or ear candaling?  There is a never ending list of things people have a "positive personal experience" with that are total bunk.

[T'Chenka]

I mean, I'd rather pay for old people to get acupuncture than to pay rich people's taxes for them.

[Mopsus]

Some people have "positive personal experiences" with lots of stupid sh**t that doesn't work.  Do you think that argument works for astrology?  Or copper bracelets?  Or essential oils?  Or ear candaling?  There is a never ending list of things people have a "positive personal experience" with that are total bunk.

And if those things weren't bunk, you wouldn't admit it

[T'Chenka]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

There's a circumcision or religion quip to be had here.

[Karpatsky]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

There's a circumcision or religion quip to be had here.

I thought that was the joke.

[T'Chenka]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

There's a circumcision or religion quip to be had here.

I thought that was the joke.

I read the post as being serious. Also, blue avatar. If not, mea culpa.

[Mopsus]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

There's a circumcision or religion quip to be had here.

If those things get enough of a reaction out of you to cause you to make a joke, then they're still doing their job.

[Vittorio]

Two different strains of right-wing imbecility in this thread: the Penn & Teller-style libertarian positivist and the social collectivist woomeister. Far from being opposed however, the former enables and empowers the latter (as when the "libertarian moment" of 2010-11 bled over into Trumpism).

[Mopsus]

Two different strains of right-wing imbecility in this thread: the Penn & Teller-style libertarian positivist and the social collectivist woomeister. Far from being opposed however, the former enables and empowers the latter (as when the "libertarian moment" of 2010-11 bled over into Trumpism).

Hi, Einzige.

[T'Chenka]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

There's a circumcision or religion quip to be had here.

If those things get enough of a reaction out of you to cause you to make a joke, then they're still doing their job.

People worship deities and remove foreskin to own the libs?

[Mopsus]

Nice. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture specifically, but I’m inclined to think it’s reputable, as the ancients didn’t have the luxury of a professional scientific class, and thus couldn’t afford to believe in things that didn’t actually work.

are you really arguing that acupuncture probably works because there wasn't science 2000 years ago?

Sure. Why would people do the same thing for 2000 years unless it worked?

There's a circumcision or religion quip to be had here.

If those things get enough of a reaction out of you to cause you to make a joke, then they're still doing their job.

People worship deities and remove foreskin to own the libs?

The outward signs of faith are outward for a reason.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Of all the "alternative medicine" ideas, acupuncture isn't the worst. It can help people. I don't mind this.