Re: Office of PSOL—Beginning of the Institute of Atlasian Progression

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

When Vern joined the Peace Party, I disagreed with his decision to resign and hold a special election for the simple fact that people elected him and trusted his judgment including his judgment to change registration, especially since neither his views nor his person changed. No one took over his account.

Westy used his judgment in this case and if voters disagree with his judgement they can vote him out in April, just like if they disagree with any "political" decision that any official makes the proper recourse is to run in and seek to win the next election.

The same position I took when someone left my party, as when someone joined it while holding high profile regional office.

An officeholder using his judgment in a way you disagree doesn't warrant radical violence, extremism or calls on the Federal gov't to engage in illegal and extra-constitutional actions to satisfy the demands of said radical extremism. And credit where credit is due, I don't think Pericles or Peanut is going to be taking the flight to Havana over this. They respect their jobs too much for that.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

That's an awfully naive attitude to have Yankee, the fact of the matter is both Vern and West_Midlander got the votes they got because of which party they were in. A majority of the South wanted a Labor Governor and their will has been overturned-it doesn't matter how close the election was that is the essence of it. Indeed, Vern's special election proves that only a few people voted for against him based on his own judgement and personality -most voted for or against his party 

What right do you have to call me naive? I have a right my damn opinion sir!

I am generally not fond of resignations in general unless dictated by some personal issue that takes you off the forum and I don't think they should be used in this fashion. We have regular elections for a reason and like it or not we elect people for a set term in office, they should serve that term unless their unavailable or unable to discharge their duties.

How the votes played out in that special election doesn't alter my general opinion on resignations, nor my opinion on how the appropriate way to handle this is.

It certainly doesn't justify a 2015 redux like some are calling for and I will be damned before I let someone puts this game through that hell again left, right or damned center. I set that last summer when it was the right and I will say it again now when it is the left.

Moderation in the pursuit of justice is certainly no virtue, but extremism is always a vice and always a danger to liberty.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

But hey, no one will listen to the tiny violin concert of the only person--maybe ever by the time it's all said and done--who won a Southern Gubernatorial election by double-digits as a left winger. C'este la vie!

Even if you are (and you aren't), why does that matter? If we are to buy the arguments you guys are peddling, those weren't votes for you, those were votes for your party label marched out to do the bidding of their masters.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

But--and this is something everyone should be able to see my perspective on even if you don't admit it in this context--running under the banner of one party and then switching allegiances halfway through is ridiculous and I would say should probably be followed up by a new election.

Can you help me, I am having trouble finding the links to the special elections that occurred after these Senator party changes?

Adam Griffin
Labor
Michigan

Happy Labor Day!

Canis
Labor
California

Happy labor day!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

WM is betraying the South by not resigning and calling for a soecial election.

No that is what he would be doing by resigning absent a compelling impediment to performing his duties.

He is betraying Pericles and MB, and that is what it comes down to these days. This is no longer Atlasia, this is the Godfather and we all no what happens if you betray the Don. This standard never existed before. Never. It wasn't applied from Winston Disraeli to Adam/Canis. But because Vern decided to go one route, everyone else is a horrible person for taking a different interpretation of their duty and their oath relative to their party?

To be honest windjammer, we have gone too far down the road of your's, Adams and since 2018 Leinad's vision of partisanship uber alles. Yes too much centrism has harmed this game, but at the same time lopsided partisanship has as well. The progenitor of this thread has openly called for the right's elimination from the game on discord, how is that not the same as one big centrist party dominating everything? But then again, you guys never have been good at seeing anyone else's perspective.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

WM is betraying the South by not resigning and calling for a soecial election.

No that is what he would be doing by resigning absent a compelling impediment to performing his duties.

He is betraying Pericles and MB, and that is what it comes down to these days. This is no longer Atlasia, this is the Godfather and we all no what happens if you betray the Don. This standard never existed before. Never. It wasn't applied from Winston Disraeli to Adam/Canis. But because Vern decided to go one route, everyone else is a horrible person for taking a different interpretation of their duty and their oath relative to their party?

To be honest windjammer, we have gone too far down the road of your's, Adams and since 2018 Leinad's vision of partisanship uber alles. Yes too much centrism has harmed this game, but at the same time lopsided partisanship has as well. The progenitor of this thread has openly called for the right's elimination from the game on discord, how is that not the same as one big centrist party dominating everything? But then again, you guys never have been good at seeing anyone else's perspective.

Translation: "we really suck at this game unless we're poaching left-wingers center-lefties"

Fixed that for you

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Now that I have more background on why WM left, I can safely say that I do understand why he did what he did. Labor does have a more centralized identity based on the loyalty and work of several powerbrokers who don’t like disloyalty or even unpredictable styles of play. I can say from experience that the Labor bureaucracy and I have gone toe-to-toe at numerous occasions. I was censured initially after leaving the government in Lincoln after the Establishment^TM would let a member of the Federalists into laborcord then the new admitted labor member SNJC. So too was resistance present in letting in bp1202, or when I was denied a house seat over the question of my loyalty by the party heads. The party is at times unfair and slow, but the pendulum swings toward justice. I got SNJC and bp1202 eventually in, I came back stronger then ever by becoming an ideologue in my time in the Fremont parliament, where I could do mostly whatever due to the party needing politicians. I even am apart of the councils of the new president, the same who along with YE denied me a house seat, and am expected to be elected to the house in April no matter what.

Let’s compare this record to what happens in the Right. Lakigigar was screwed over numerous times by the Feds even though he was an opposition candidate and a Fed member. Bagel23’s Faustian pact with the Feds was not enough to guarantee him a house seat. On the right; there are goldbugs, racists, and tried criminals in office or members. This is not a stable, trustworthy party worth your time or allegiance to my guy. Labor has its problems, but the solution is to point it out and work to fix them, as I have done and arguably have won in the long run. It is not to go to the right where you frankly don’t belong. Come home West Midlander, I and everyone else will forgive you and treat you no different the sooner you come home. You don’t even need to go back to being in labor, an Indy registration would be enough. You have so much power at your disposal in the South, it’s time to make the right decision.

You confuse inability/incompetence for intentionally screwing someone over.

It is easy to say "Labor did this, this and this" while Feds fail to do this, that and the other thing, but you forget the underlying backdrop that Labor controls a majority of the votes in this game either directly or indirectly and that means they have the power to deliver results favorable to their desired outcome in most every circumstance.

We don't have the same luxuries to deliver votes. When Laki ran for House, several of us voted for him until we ran out of votes. Because duh, we are the minority. If we had the votes to win a majority, he would be in the House and the controlling vote on legislation. When Bagel ran for CoD as part of a slate, we did our best to GOTV for him until we ran out of votes because three of the "recruitment wave" people didn't show up. If Bagel had wanted to run for House, he would be on the slate now. Perhaps you might have missed a certain thread begging people to run for office?

Labor is great at the spoils system because they have reduced the game to merely marching out the soldiers and have that down to a well oiled machine, meaning they don't have to worry about 3 new people not showing up, or someone going offline randomly just before the election only to come back on Monday and say "My bad!". For them they can substitute, we need every vote.

You will never understand what it is like over here.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

WM is betraying the South by not resigning and calling for a soecial election.

No that is what he would be doing by resigning absent a compelling impediment to performing his duties.

He is betraying Pericles and MB, and that is what it comes down to these days. This is no longer Atlasia, this is the Godfather and we all no what happens if you betray the Don. This standard never existed before. Never. It wasn't applied from Winston Disraeli to Adam/Canis. But because Vern decided to go one route, everyone else is a horrible person for taking a different interpretation of their duty and their oath relative to their party?

To be honest windjammer, we have gone too far down the road of your's, Adams and since 2018 Leinad's vision of partisanship uber alles. Yes too much centrism has harmed this game, but at the same time lopsided partisanship has as well. The progenitor of this thread has openly called for the right's elimination from the game on discord, how is that not the same as one big centrist party dominating everything? But then again, you guys never have been good at seeing anyone else's perspective.

Translation: "we really suck at this game unless we're poaching left-wingers center-lefties"

Fixed that for you


Think about the thought process, Adam. Your whole mindset regarding Atlasia only works if there are two equally strong loyal blocks opposing each other.

The problem is that doesn't exist in the reality that is this forum's population, and without intending to Labor has become the new JCP.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

WM is betraying the South by not resigning and calling for a soecial election.

No that is what he would be doing by resigning absent a compelling impediment to performing his duties.

He is betraying Pericles and MB, and that is what it comes down to these days. This is no longer Atlasia, this is the Godfather and we all no what happens if you betray the Don. This standard never existed before. Never. It wasn't applied from Winston Disraeli to Adam/Canis. But because Vern decided to go one route, everyone else is a horrible person for taking a different interpretation of their duty and their oath relative to their party?

To be honest windjammer, we have gone too far down the road of your's, Adams and since 2018 Leinad's vision of partisanship uber alles. Yes too much centrism has harmed this game, but at the same time lopsided partisanship has as well. The progenitor of this thread has openly called for the right's elimination from the game on discord, how is that not the same as one big centrist party dominating everything? But then again, you guys never have been good at seeing anyone else's perspective.

Yankee,
How can you not prefer this era of hyperpolarization than what Atlasia used to be. Remember TPP, this garbage big tent party that was going to destroy this game: so many crual personal attacks made against many players led by a psychopath. We were among the first victims and targets of these degenerates and I'm glad this era of "not partisanship" is gone.

I prefer much more this period where actually, people from fghtagn to MB and PSOL actually stand for something.

To be honest I prefer 2014.  Feds and Labor were equal in size and you had both DR and TPP as smaller third parties and elections were competitive, Senators debated and you actually had swing voters. It would have stayed that way if we had protected our two regions from invaders and Federalists didn't shoot themselves in the foot for personal gain, while the chair was going through a RL crisis.

Nobody could argue that people didn't stand for things with TNF, shua, Lumine and myself in the Senate. If anything, there is very little standing for things now compared to then, because the quality of the debate has declined so much.

Yes, I think what WestMildlander did is extremely bad. He betrayed his friends because some guys were Nice to him on discord. I have done many dirty things but I have always been loyal. When Labor helps you to get elected to an important office like Southern Governor it is expected from you to be loyal to the party and I don't see that as controversial.

But anyway, personally I have always known that WestMildlander was going to betray us. Heavy influencable, history of backstabbing, a tendancy of changing his political views all the time to look edgy, that was going to happen.

But I understand why MB is being more pissed about this because WM was his friend and he invested a lot in helping him be elected to then see this same friend doing everything he can to destroy him politically without any guilt.

I never said you shouldn't be mad. I just said that I didn't think in my personal opinion that it justified resignation when we have something in American style politics called, a regularly scheduled election for such "political" questions to be addressed by the voters.

You guys then flipped out because someone had a different opinion than the machine.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Whoever knew the right could be this intellectually dishonest? Dumping the people who got you elected once the partnership is no longer convenient for you is sh*tty opportunism at its most transparent —and I know the people in this thread know this because of the public and private tantrums they threw every time DFW (for example) switched parties. Truly hilarious to see circa. 2017 talking points about "the culture in Labor" and "big-tent Federalism" being bandied about again now that the experiment with hard-right purism has ended in abject failure. Back then I would have been offended, but I've since learned not to be surprised by people who will vote to elect anti-semites and bizarro TNF while screeching about civility and pretend their narrative is internally consistent.

I have said nothing in this thread, I wasn't saying last summer.

And the only bizzarro TNF I have seen recently, is in this thread and they aren't on our side.

There is also a difference between switching back and forth several times and switching once.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And the only bizzarro TNF I have seen recently, is in this thread and they aren't on our side.

Excuse me?

Parrallel gov't ring a bell? Sounds a lot like when TNF made himself Senator illegally because he didn't like what Snowguy was doing.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And the only bizzarro TNF I have seen recently, is in this thread and they aren't on our side.

Really? I don't think it's a big secret who I was referring to. (Hint: not PSOL.)

The rest of your post is a more succinct summary of what I attempted to say in mine —maybe people will actually read it now!

I haven't a clue who you are talking about. When I make comparisons to TNF, I typically incorporate more than the last act, having served in the Senate with him for two years. Failure to do so renders most such comparisons weak at best.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And the only bizzarro TNF I have seen recently, is in this thread and they aren't on our side.

Really? I don't think it's a big secret who I was referring to. (Hint: not PSOL.)

The rest of your post is a more succinct summary of what I attempted to say in mine —maybe people will actually read it now!

I haven't a clue who you are talking about. When I make comparisons to TNF, I typically incorporate more than the last act, having served in the Senate with him for two years. Failure to do so renders most such comparisons weak at best.

Pretty sure you just made a comparison based entirely on his last act, but okay. If you really can't think of anyone on your side who rivals the toxicity, ideological rigidity, and disdain for all those outside their closed circle of associates that was TNF's modus operandi, I can't help you.

Actually I didn't. PSOL shares similar left-populism and other attributes that make the comparison more wholly balanced. He has also called for the complete elimination of the right just like TNF did, when famously danced on the grave of the Federalist party in 2015 while Windjammer and others new better for the sake of the Labor Party.

If you mean Fhtagn, I wouldn't compare her to TNF at all. I would however compare her to DWTL who would share the mentioned attributes without all the complicating ones that don't match, for instance she has never tried to illegally install an extra constitutional officer like TNF did and PSOL has now called for, not to mention being on opposite sides ideologically. DWTL on the other hand led a southern secession effort, he constantly punched down, was always toxic to the likes of the HappyWarrior, Afleitch, and Vern and he catered to an ever shrinking circle.

Granted you weren't here for this time period, so I cannot help you from making terribly imperfect comparisons.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also, the votes that Fhtagn gets from Feds, are Feds that are her personal vote. They were not "sent" to her. She had them before she left and she has "kept" them by and large as a personal non-ACP vote.

Whenever we discuss house strategy in the Feds, we presume and plan around them continuing to vote in such fashion. And believe me, this has been a sore spot, but there is nothing I can do about it.

But feds tend to not listen

Feds only listen to select people, and when that said person doesn't contact them, they don't vote.

You will never understand just how difficult it is over here.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't want to turn this thread into an argument about which villains of history Fhtagn most resembles, but I will point out that I addressed my post to "the right," not you personally, Yankee. Unless you are every right-wing poster and this whole game is your elaborate attempt to find someone who will read your posts. (I should have thought of that!)

No, but you are my sock and this thread is my attempt to rival Hamilton and JSoujourner.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And the only bizzarro TNF I have seen recently, is in this thread and they aren't on our side.

Excuse me?

Take it as a compliment!

The ironic thing is, for a long time, TNF was a target for admiration even among some center-left types. Libertarians also liked him because like MB today, he was a devout social libertarian.

He was also pro-gun and VERY pro explosives:

By a vote of 6-3 this amendment has passed and is sent to the regions for ratification:

Aye: Bore, Polnut, JCL, Windjammer, Bacon King, Cranberry

Nay: Yankee, TNF, Deus

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also, the votes that Fhtagn gets from Feds, are Feds that are her personal vote. They were not "sent" to her. She had them before she left and she has "kept" them by and large as a personal non-ACP vote.

Yes, "the right" is just incompetent with respect to standing up to or asserting control over select individuals within its ranks. Literally half of the instances in which the right has lost the House post-reset has been because fhtagn hoards first preferences like a fatty hoards carbs in their belly. Truly shameful, disorganized and weak-willed behavior is largely to blame for your current congressional predicament. Everybody on the left has a good laugh in every election when she gets like 20 first preferences while every other candidate has like 4 or 5.

The ironic thing is, for a long time, TNF was a target for admiration even among some center-left types. Libertarians also liked him because like MB today, he was a devout social libertarian.

He was also pro-gun and VERY pro explosives:

By a vote of 6-3 this amendment has passed and is sent to the regions for ratification:

Aye: Bore, Polnut, JCL, Windjammer, Bacon King, Cranberry

Nay: Yankee, TNF, Deus

Are you really going to point out that vote: the one where jambles tricked JCL into voting for it when he really wanted to vote against it?

Ok bgwah. He used to throw that around.

You guys have won pv for House consistently most Everytime we lost house. Distribution is meaningless when you lose the pv, you ain't winning a majority. 

I have told you a million times they don't want to be controlled like that. Conservatives aren't liberals or leftists they will tell you to f off and leave.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also, the votes that Fhtagn gets from Feds, are Feds that are her personal vote. They were not "sent" to her. She had them before she left and she has "kept" them by and large as a personal non-ACP vote.

Yes, "the right" is just incompetent with respect to standing up to or asserting control over select individuals within its ranks. Literally half of the instances in which the right has lost the House post-reset has been because fhtagn hoards first preferences like a fatty hoards carbs in their belly. Truly shameful, disorganized and weak-willed behavior is largely to blame for your current congressional predicament. Everybody on the left has a good laugh in every election when she gets like 20 first preferences while every other candidate has like 4 or 5.

The ironic thing is, for a long time, TNF was a target for admiration even among some center-left types. Libertarians also liked him because like MB today, he was a devout social libertarian.

He was also pro-gun and VERY pro explosives:

By a vote of 6-3 this amendment has passed and is sent to the regions for ratification:

Aye: Bore, Polnut, JCL, Windjammer, Bacon King, Cranberry

Nay: Yankee, TNF, Deus

Are you really going to point out that vote: the one where jambles tricked JCL into voting for it when he really wanted to vote against it?

Ok bgwah. He used to throw that around.

You guys have won pv for House consistently most Everytime we lost house. Distribution is meaningless when you lose the pv, you ain't winning a majority. 

I have told you a million times they don't want to be controlled like that. Conservatives aren't liberals or leftists they will tell you to f off and leave.

To be fair that is very weird and interesting. There is a saying in real life that "liberals fall in love, conservatives fall in line".  What is stopping conservative zombies from falling in line for whatever Federalist candidate needs votes, just like irl they would presumably vote for whichever Republican candidate is in the ballot?

Because conservatives are conditioned to distrust what the leadership is doing. Especially in the US.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The Federalist Party or its direct antecedents (that merged to form it) have existed since January 2012. There have been countless people have counted us out, predicted our imminent or proclaimed our certain death. You may defeat us, but we will always come back. We always have and we always will! 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I ask my fellow Atlasians to refrain from continuing on hammering soundbites on the previous topic, as that chapter is now at a close in this office. Thank You.

I can solve this problem while I am here, no extra charge.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

PSOL, Your homework for tonight from Professor Yankee: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=80405.msg1658736#msg1658736


Read all 65 pages.

My second post in the thread:

I have decided after much consideration to join the RPP.

Really...

Wow the RPP is good at brain washing.

     That was uncalled for.

I don't ever recall being brainwashed. Maybe cause this is the only party in Atlasia that cares about restraining Gov't and thus fits very well with my beliefs. All power to the Regions!!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Regionalism as an Atlasian ideology came about because there was no other unifying theme upon which to bring together a right leaning conservative movement in game. Bush era Republicanism was as popular as cancer on Atlas at the time and the Libertarians (of which there were many at the time) wanted nothing to do with the Rick Santorums of the world.

Regionalism became a means by which to bring about a unification of the scattered and disorganized right that was both unifying internally but also provided the flexibility to moderate on issues to be competitive.

This cuts both ways though. In early 2012 I criticized the Whigs because their embrace of hard line social conservatism seemed to risk a similar collapse on the right and I ended up joining the Imperial Bloc, which was non-ideological but pro-region.

Finally, this also was the basis for my criticisms of the ACP both in the context of embracing gov't for conservative ends if the opportunity came about and also the loss of the big tent Regionalist glue that has been fundamental on the right for 10 years.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also the regionalist aspects of the Federalist Party platform are almost completely unchanged in all the proposals and have existed in the Federalist Party platform since 2014 if not 2012. The core components about separation of powers, about equal representation for regions and the popular interest, about judicial independence and devolution of authority to the regions, are all Rimjob (2013) era flash points for contention.

Finally it seems like PSOL is talking like we have passed a new proposal when it actually we are in the process of voting on amendments to the existing platform.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I am shocked, shocked that a "Federalist" Party supports small f federalism.


There was a lot of people who didn't value the name beyond just the historical theme Atlasia was on in 2012-2013 (Whigs, Federalists, DRs etc). They wanted a generic conservative or even a European Conservative party and you saw this in the famous RPP name change debacle. With the RPP we had a push to rename the party and in the process move away from the founding regionalist purpose, eventually we ended up going back to the RPP name and stuck with it from then on.

With the Federalist Party, in its first year there was a divide where some of us wanted a philosophical "federalism" based on checks and balances, independent judiciary, regional-federal balance of power and representation and those who wanted generic conservatism with less concern about these constitutionalist concerns. This was also the era of Rand Paul being at his political height as well as Ted Cruz, so there was a great appetite on the right for some form of "Constitutionalist" centric approach IRL. 

I don't see any other practical basis for coalition, how else do you get moderates, social conservatives and libertarians to stop killing each other and work together? If they don't work together, they either fade away or just pad the already substantial majority on the left and then in that situation you don't have any competition, you don't have a game.

The one thing that most all of those groups agree on, is they don't want Nyman running their lives, they don't want to be dictated to by them and if you are concerned about secession, Federalism is the antidote for secession. Federalism means that everyone is at the table and everyone gets input and gets considered. When you have centralism people just get trampled upon until they won't take it anymore and then they start to secede. I have never supported any secession effort in this country and I have tried to prevent secession from happening and as Burkian my view is that the best way to avoid secession is to create a system where all areas of the country have a say and don't get screwed.

Politics is Newtonian, and the more centralist the government becomes, there will be an equal growth in appetite for secession. Federalism is the balancing act that keeps everyone content.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I’m amazed at how one could create an entire few paragraphs with nothing of note or meaning to them. You surely have  surprisingly convincing imitation of Fuzzy Bear, North Carolina Yankee.

That unfortunate, because the last part in particular condemns your call for centralism for it is, the road to separatism. Federalism is the moderate path that keeps people like you and Muaddib from murdering each other in the streets.

I don't want Atlasia ripped apart by extreme voices. The answer to this is what I said, have a system everyone has a seat at the table and no people are left behind and no geographic region is left behind. That is how you avoid secession, by having a system that works for everyone.