Opinions of the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)

[NOVA Green]

So.... this was inspired by a conversation I had at the Oregon Coast this last Weekend with any older guy on the verge of retirement from Tennessee, as well as inspired some readings that I have been doing from the book about Goldwater "Beyond the Storm", as well as other books and historical coverage that I have spent over the years.

Dude was way cool, but while we were chatting at the hotel for over an Hour and I'm giving him the skinny on downstate OR, we're also talking about TN, and for whatever reason the TVA jumped to my mind.

Vote---- History and Modern context of the TVA!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Valley_Authority

Please post reasons for your vote, and once I get enough responses I'll provide an interesting critique from this TN gent from Knoxville who used to work for the TVA for a Decade or more that might surprise many of y'all as it did myself....

Edit 6/19/19: changed "about an older guy from TN" to "with an older guy from TN" and "as well as about some readings from.... Goldwater book" to "inspired by some readings...".

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

All those flooded valleys with their towns and farms were dislocating for people and quite sad even if some argue it was necessary.

[NOVA Green]

All those flooded valleys with their towns and farms were dislocating for people and quite sad even if some argue it was necessary.

Thanks Shua! (You actually share the same name as one of my newphews. )

I normally don't post often in the US General Discussion Thread and rarely create threads, since it seems to be a lightning rod for all sorts of crazy bantering.

Maybe I should have posted in US History, but at the same time TVA is still relevant and discussed today within policy and political angles, so felt this was the best fit for the topic....

So interesting answer and certainly a part of the history of the TVA within the region.

Obviously there are tons of musical content that references the work of the TVA over the past 86 Years from a wide variety of perspectives.....

http://20thcenturyhistorysongbook.com/song-book/the-great-depression/the-tennessee-valley-authority-tva/

There are also various musical artists not cited in the link above about music and popular culture on this topic, from various regions heavily impacted by the TVA including Northern Alabama overwhelmingly White Counties some of the last to defect to the Republican Party in Presidential Elections....

Muscle Shoals was the blueprint for the TVA (Colbert County AL), which was also the original HQ of the TVA before they relocated to Knoxville and to the present day is still a familiar feature of Northern 'Bama politics.

The "Southern Rock Sound" of the '70s/'80s included bands such as Alabama and Lynyrd Skynyrd that directly referenced the TVA in Northern 'Bama:

Alabama: "Song of the South"

Song, song of the south
Sweet potato pie and I shut my mouth
Gone, gone with the wind
There ain't nobody looking back again
Cotton on the roadside, cotton in the ditch
We all picked the cotton but we never got rich
Daddy was a veteran, a southern democrat
They oughta get a rich man to vote like that
Sing it
Song, song of the south
Sweet potato pie and I shut my mouth
Gone, gone with the wind
There ain't nobody looking back again
Well somebody told us Wall Street fell
But we were so poor that we couldn't tell
Cotton was short and the weeds were tall
But Mr. Roosevelt's a gonna save us all
Well momma got sick and daddy got down
The county got the farm and they moved to town
Pappa got a job with the TVA
He bought a washing machine and then a Chevrolet
Sing it
Song,…

Lynyrd Skynyrd: "Sweet Home Alabama"

In Birmingham they love the governor (boo, boo, boo)
Now we all did what we could do
Now Watergate does not bother me
Does your conscience bother you?
Tell the truth

Sweet home Alabama
Where the skies are so blue
Sweet Home Alabama
Lord, I'm coming home to you
Here I come Alabama

Now Muscle Shoals has got the Swampers
And they've been known to pick a song or two
Lord they get me off so much
They pick me up when I'm feeling blue
Now how about you?

So these are just two well known Southern Rock '70s/'80s references to areas where the TVA was huge in AL (Although it could be argued that Skynyrd was referencing Muscle Shoals more within the context of a massive music venue not that far down the road from Memphis and tons of quality talent drifting though the crossroads region of the South (Which was a region that dramatically benefited economically for many decades as a result).

Went slightly OT on pop-cultural references there, but wanted to emphasize that this is still a HUGE deal within the region, and not just some historical legacy of the past....

Meanwhile to take my TARDIS back in time, Barry Goldwater is essentially coming close to to gain sufficient backing to potentially unleash a "Conservative Coup" (Which he did not endorse) against the prospect of a "Liberal Republican such as Rockefeller or Nixon achieving the nomination:

Barry Goldwater on 8/24/63 makes the following comment on the TVA:

"I think we've got to sell the TVA"....  (Full interview with Barry Goldwater and Alsop and at least 20 minutes of interesting reading).

http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/wp-content/uploads/satevepost/1963-08-24.pdf

Ok--- so interested in seeing more comments and opinions on the TVA

Surprised we haven't seen any posters jump in yet to comment from areas most immediately historically and currently impacted by policies of the TVA.....

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

All those flooded valleys with their towns and farms were dislocating for people and quite sad even if some argue it was necessary.

I might mention also that Robert Penn Warren wrote a book with this as the setting (Flood: A Romance of Our Time) I haven't read it yet but it looks very interesting.   The flooding of an Alabama valley also features prominently in O Brother Where Art Thou.

Here's an interesting thing I saw on C-SPAN last month: a documentary called "Valley of the Tennessee" from 1944.  The US Office of War Information sponsored this and showed it to the people in the places the Allies liberated from the Nazis, the implication I suppose being "Here's what we've done for Americans, we will do great things for you too."    Seems to do a good job explaining some of the goals and ideas behind the TVA and its methods, even while portraying its beneficiaries as largely half-wit backwards yokels resistant to change but slowly recognizing the superiority of the new.

[pbrower2a]

It brought a very poor part of America up to the standard of the rest of America in living conditions without brutality. Nobody would think of undoing it today.   

[Indy Texas]

Didn't Reagan lose Tennessee to Ford in the 1976 primaries in part because he spoke ill of the TVA?

[NOVA Green]

So here's another small slice of Americana....   S**t hits fan in Feb '19 about the TVA that I don't believe anyone on Atlas has mentioned, despite the fact that it is not only one of the largest Utility Companies within the region (Publicly owned and regulated) , but also Trump tries to impact energy sources for the agency.....   

This is a "slow burner" and the TVA has been a major deal in US politics since '33 to the present day.... so here's a bit more reading material

https://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/entries/tennessee-valley-authority/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-urges-tennessee-valley-authority-to-keep-open-49-year-old-coal-plant/2019/02/12/6fa1810c-2ed9-11e9-813a-0ab2f17e305b_story.html?utm_term=.ae911141013d

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/tva-defies-trump-votes-to-shut-down-two-aging-coal-fired-power-plants/2019/02/14/6cc0c9f8-3077-11e9-86ab-5d02109aeb01_story.html?utm_term=.75b3adfce734

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/14/694769097/trump-tweet-fails-to-save-kentucky-coal-fired-power-plant

https://www.apnews.com/0fac738b50604d09a861ddc0d339c1c2

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

Coal slurry retention pond failures,  high prices,  no competition,  yep it's an FDR boondoggle. 0%.

[Del Tachi]

Necessary at the time, as it brought electrification and economic development to a region of the country that severely needed it.  Interestingly enough, my great-grandparents lived in one of the last rural communities in North Mississippi to receive TVA power - they weren't electrified until 1953 - less than two decades removed from the birth of my parents in the same region of Mississippi.

However, we need to recognize the TVA for what it is, a power company, more so than a coherent economic development strategy for the region in the 21st century.  Of course, TVA (like all power companies) continues to play a big role in economic development across the region, but the only reason it exists today is so that Southern politicians can have a direct hand in greasing deals by slashing power rates for their favorite campaign contributors.   

[NOVA Green]

Coal slurry retention pond failures,  high prices,  no competition,  yep it's an FDR boondoggle. 0%.

Are TVA prices really higher than the competition?

"69% of the top 100 utility companies charge more than we do"

https://www.tva.com/Newsroom/How-TVA-Helps-Keep-Your-Power-Bill-Low

https://www.mtemc.com/Residential-Rates

Now, it is possible you are talking about recent increases for residential consumers to essentially provide savings to industrial consumers of it's energy supply, which I suspect is what Del Tachi referenced below.

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2018/01/30/tva-tennessee-valley-authority-utility-rates-power-bills/1080017001/

https://cleanenergy.org/blog/industrial-rate-cut-tva/

[NOVA Green]

Necessary at the time, as it brought electrification and economic development to a region of the country that severely needed it.  Interestingly enough, my great-grandparents lived in one of the last rural communities in North Mississippi to receive TVA power - they weren't electrified until 1953 - less than two decades removed from the birth of my parents in the same region of Mississippi.

However, we need to recognize the TVA for what it is, a power company, more so than a coherent economic development strategy for the region in the 21st century.  Of course, TVA (like all power companies) continues to play a big role in economic development across the region, but the only reason it exists today is so that Southern politicians can have a direct hand in greasing deals by slashing power rates for their favorite campaign contributors.   

Interesting post and bolded one of your last points and many of the residential consumers noticing price increases and local press coverage in recent Years (A few links posted up-thread), are likely not big fans of "essentially paying for tax breaks for industrial companies on their dime" such as the Auto Companies in the region, which is perhaps the direction you were going in the tail part of your post?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

When I saw this thread, I was wondering how many posts it would be before someone referenced Alabama's Song of the South in this thread. Only took 3.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

It might be relevant to mention that the counties spanning the Muscle Shoals region didn't vote for Goldwater in 1964!

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

So here's another small slice of Americana....   S**t hits fan in Feb '19 about the TVA that I don't believe anyone on Atlas has mentioned, despite the fact that it is not only one of the largest Utility Companies within the region (Publicly owned and regulated) , but also Trump tries to impact energy sources for the agency.....   

This is a "slow burner" and the TVA has been a major deal in US politics since '33 to the present day.... so here's a bit more reading material

https://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/entries/tennessee-valley-authority/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-urges-tennessee-valley-authority-to-keep-open-49-year-old-coal-plant/2019/02/12/6fa1810c-2ed9-11e9-813a-0ab2f17e305b_story.html?utm_term=.ae911141013d

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/tva-defies-trump-votes-to-shut-down-two-aging-coal-fired-power-plants/2019/02/14/6cc0c9f8-3077-11e9-86ab-5d02109aeb01_story.html?utm_term=.75b3adfce734

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/14/694769097/trump-tweet-fails-to-save-kentucky-coal-fired-power-plant

https://www.apnews.com/0fac738b50604d09a861ddc0d339c1c2

You've only scratched the surface - I read a WSJ article that describes, at length, how a startup's contract with the TVA to expand transmission lines from Oklahoma wind farms to the TVA system was vetoed by the TVA. The article didn't describe the reasoning but it definitely seems like it was politically motivated...

[Gass3268]

It's rather unfortunate that a similar proposed project wasn't authorized in the Northwest.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

Coal slurry retention pond failures,  high prices,  no competition,  yep it's an FDR boondoggle. 0%.

Are TVA prices really higher than the competition?

"69% of the top 100 utility companies charge more than we do"

https://www.tva.com/Newsroom/How-TVA-Helps-Keep-Your-Power-Bill-Low

https://www.mtemc.com/Residential-Rates

Now, it is possible you are talking about recent increases for residential consumers to essentially provide savings to industrial consumers of it's energy supply, which I suspect is what Del Tachi referenced below.

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2018/01/30/tva-tennessee-valley-authority-utility-rates-power-bills/1080017001/

https://cleanenergy.org/blog/industrial-rate-cut-tva/

They are also high for the region I believe, and for the income-level of the average consumer.

[NOVA Green]

So here's another small slice of Americana....   S**t hits fan in Feb '19 about the TVA that I don't believe anyone on Atlas has mentioned, despite the fact that it is not only one of the largest Utility Companies within the region (Publicly owned and regulated) , but also Trump tries to impact energy sources for the agency.....   

This is a "slow burner" and the TVA has been a major deal in US politics since '33 to the present day.... so here's a bit more reading material

https://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/entries/tennessee-valley-authority/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-urges-tennessee-valley-authority-to-keep-open-49-year-old-coal-plant/2019/02/12/6fa1810c-2ed9-11e9-813a-0ab2f17e305b_story.html?utm_term=.ae911141013d

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/tva-defies-trump-votes-to-shut-down-two-aging-coal-fired-power-plants/2019/02/14/6cc0c9f8-3077-11e9-86ab-5d02109aeb01_story.html?utm_term=.75b3adfce734

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/14/694769097/trump-tweet-fails-to-save-kentucky-coal-fired-power-plant

https://www.apnews.com/0fac738b50604d09a861ddc0d339c1c2

You've only scratched the surface - I read a WSJ article that describes, at length, how a startup's contract with the TVA to expand transmission lines from Oklahoma wind farms to the TVA system was vetoed by the TVA. The article didn't describe the reasoning but it definitely seems like it was politically motivated...

DeadFlagBlues---- nice to see you posting again, I didn't realize you were back until I saw this post!

Do you have a link to the WSJ article for the rest of us (Although I could probably find it easily enough)?

I didn't have any hidden agenda on starting this thread, other than just a random conversation with a retiring TVA worker from Knoxville at the Oregon Coast the other week, plus being an extensive topic in Barry Goldwater's political career from a book I started reading a few weeks back....

NYT Book Review:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/01/reviews/010401.01kristot.html

[NOVA Green]

Didn't Reagan lose Tennessee to Ford in the 1976 primaries in part because he spoke ill of the TVA?

That's possible, do you have a citation since I'm not an expert on the subject, and it's been awhile since I have read on this topic and there wasn't a Theodore H. White '76 book that went into the nitty gritty of the '76 election season?

[NOVA Green]

It's rather unfortunate that a similar proposed project wasn't authorized in the Northwest.

I love your dry sense of humor here...

When I first moved to Oregon from the Central Atlantic region roughly two years old about 43 Years ago, naturally as I became older and aware I learned about the history of the Bonneville Power Authority (BPA) in Oregon and the History of Hydro-Electric Energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Oregon

Here are a few articles from the oregonencyclopedia.org that talk about Public Power in the PacNW....

https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/bonneville_power_administration/#.XQ_8PuhKjIU

https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/guthrie_woody_and_the_columbia_river/#.XQ_8tuhKjIU

Of course, I did grow up listening to the Woody Guthrie Song: "The Grand Coulee Dam"

Lyrics below:

Well, the world has seven wonders, the travelers always tell
Some gardens and some towers, I guess you know them well
But the greatest wonder is in Uncle Sam's fair land
It's that King Columbia River and the big Grand Coulee Dam
She heads up the Canadian Rockies where the rippling waters glide
Comes a-rumbling down the canyon to meet that salty tide
Of the wide Pacific Ocean where the sun sets in the west
And the big Grand Coulee country in the land I love the best
In the misty crystal glitter of that wild and windward spray
Men have fought the pounding waters and met a watery grave
Well, she tore their boats to splinters but she gave men dreams to dream
Of the day the Coulee Dam would cross that wild and wasted stream
Uncle Sam took up the challenge in the year of Thirty three
For the farmer and the factory and all of you and me
He said, "Roll along Columbia. You can ramble to the sea
But river while you're ramblin' you can do some work for me"
Now in Washington and Oregon you hear the factories hum
Making chrome and making manganese and light aluminum
And there roars a mighty furnace now to fight for Uncle Sam
Spawned upon the King Columbia by the big Grand Coulee Dam
In the misty crystal glitter of that wild and windward spray
Men have fought the pounding waters and met a watery grave
Well, she tore their boats to splinters but she gave men dreams to dream
Of the day the Coulee Dam would cross that wild and wasted stream

This wasn't the only song that Woody wrote about hydro-electric energy in the PacNW, but ultimately it helped created enough industrial power in the region to not only provide electricity to rural households, but if one hits a fast-forward button or jumps in the TARDIS a few years forward, it provided a massive energy system that was able to power the Shipyards and Steel Mills of Oregon, to pump out Military related items that directly played a major role in WW II on the Asian Front.

Not as familiar with the TVA's role in the War effort during WW II, but thanks for bringing that up, since there were very many similar critiques of both projects during the height of FDR and the Public Work Projects era of the Mid '30s.

[DINGO Joe]

When I saw this thread, I was wondering how many posts it would be before someone referenced Alabama's Song of the South in this thread. Only took 3.

Given it's a NOVA Green thread, I'm a bit shocked it wasn't part of the OP.

[DINGO Joe]

All those flooded valleys with their towns and farms were dislocating for people and quite sad even if some argue it was necessary.

Some would argue that the best parts of the South are the ones that were flooded.

Coal slurry retention pond failures,  high prices,  no competition,  yep it's an FDR boondoggle. 0%.

Any utility that has burned coal in the past certainly is struggling with coal pond issue at this point, hardly unique to the TVA.

Necessary at the time, as it brought electrification and economic development to a region of the country that severely needed it. 
However, we need to recognize the TVA for what it is, a power company, more so than a coherent economic development strategy for the region in the 21st century.  Of course, TVA (like all power companies) continues to play a big role in economic development across the region, but the only reason it exists today is so that Southern politicians can have a direct hand in greasing deals by slashing power rates for their favorite campaign contributors.   

Yeah, basically this. 

It did develop an area of the country that would have been difficult to develop otherwise, even if they're filled with racist hicks.  Hard to imagine Huntsville or Knoxville to be anything like they are today without the TVA. 

Somewhere I have a really cool reproduction of a newspaper ad made by a coal company attacking the TVA for being unfair competition and putting coal miners out of work.  Of course, initially the TVA was large scale hydro, which could really only be done with large scale public investment.  Once that was maxed out and demand rose they became a customer of coal which they're now exiting.  The boondoggle part really came with nuclear,  when they spent a ton of money on plants that would never come into existence and the ones that did had huge cost overruns.  Again, you can look at other pubic utilities that made the same errors.

I voted 75%.

[NOVA Green]

When I saw this thread, I was wondering how many posts it would be before someone referenced Alabama's Song of the South in this thread. Only took 3.

Given it's a NOVA Green thread, I'm a bit shocked it wasn't part of the OP.

Well it was a choice of trying to "rig the poll" by posting so I could have played a ton of Folk Music or New Deal TVA promo anthems from the time '30s/'40s/'50s, so just chose to place it somewhere in the '70s/'80s  to move us closer to the gravity of time and space and the history of the TVA....

Please feel free to contribute cultural historical items when it comes to music, art, or other representations of the history of the TVA in the early days.

Drive-by-Truckers represents a more modern version of the TVA within the Southern Rock tradition from yet another generation, situated in the early 2000s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mK9C7s0jr0


Musical culture is constantly changing, but in the early '00s even within the Southern Sound the TVA is still a common popular motif....