11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

He thinks any measure to prevent a child after the last conscious act to create that child constitutes killing a person and cannot be justified, even theoretically.

I believe that at conception (sperm plus egg getting together) a human life, complete with an eternal soul, is created at that point.  It is not a fully developed human life, but neither is a newborn infant, for that matter.

[Joe Republic]

Just curious, and I’m sure as hell not going to go back and find out, but how many posts in this 22 page thread are by women?

(Yes it matters.)

[fhtagn]

https://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/16/i-was-conceived-in-rape-but-im-glad-i-wasnt-aborted-i-did-not-deserve-death-for-my-fathers-crime/?fbclid=IwAR3S2JjL6YyTv_WWvFM7nf1oQmkJQN_LXR-tIJN85oqEYDr2kXFpc-nfSJo

So what would you say to this woman who was conceived in rape?



I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

If you asked afleitch, he'd just say she never should have been born.

[afleitch]

^^^^

What I find so mind numbing about comments like that above, is the complete inability to understand what the 'choice' part of being pro-choice means; the choice to proceed, the choice to not proceed. I defend a woman's right to give birth to her rapists child as much as I defend her right not to. Maybe it sets ablaze the field of strawmen to accept that I don't know.

[7,052,770]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

He thinks any measure to prevent a child after the last conscious act to create that child constitutes killing a person and cannot be justified, even theoretically.

I believe that at conception (sperm plus egg getting together) a human life, complete with an eternal soul, is created at that point.  It is not a fully developed human life, but neither is a newborn infant, for that matter.

So Heaven's pretty weird then, considering how most people there never made it past the single-cell stage.

[7,052,770]

https://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/16/i-was-conceived-in-rape-but-im-glad-i-wasnt-aborted-i-did-not-deserve-death-for-my-fathers-crime/?fbclid=IwAR3S2JjL6YyTv_WWvFM7nf1oQmkJQN_LXR-tIJN85oqEYDr2kXFpc-nfSJo

So what would you say to this woman who was conceived in rape?

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

If you asked afleitch, he'd just say she never should have been born.

Neither afleitch nor anyone else here says that women "should" have abortions, just that they should have the right to do so if they choose. This woman's mother made the choice that she (not some preacher, not some Republican politician) wanted, and I applaud her for it.

[QAnonKelly]

Forcing a child who got raped to carry to term is ing sick.  This is coming from one of the few people here that has actually been an eleven year old girl. When I was 11 all I cared about was playing softball and Harry Potter, it would have traumatized me for the rest of my life if I had gotten raped and was forced to give birth.  Let kids be kids, especially kids who have already been traumatized.

[afleitch]

I believe that at conception (sperm plus egg getting together) a human life, complete with an eternal soul, is created at that point.  It is not a fully developed human life, but neither is a newborn infant, for that matter.

Out of curiousity, given that something in the region of 30-40% of all fertilised eggs end in miscarriage, do you consider the womb to be as much a place of death as it is of life? Often these are chromosomal abnormalities that under no circumstances can ever actually develop into a human; how can it be a human life if it can never be human?

[All Along The Watchtower]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

He thinks any measure to prevent a child after the last conscious act to create that child constitutes killing a person and cannot be justified, even theoretically.

I believe that at conception (sperm plus egg getting together) a human life, complete with an eternal soul, is created at that point.  It is not a fully developed human life, but neither is a newborn infant, for that matter.

I believe that Fuzzy Bear is not qualified to speak on behalf of women.

[fhtagn]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

He thinks any measure to prevent a child after the last conscious act to create that child constitutes killing a person and cannot be justified, even theoretically.

I believe that at conception (sperm plus egg getting together) a human life, complete with an eternal soul, is created at that point.  It is not a fully developed human life, but neither is a newborn infant, for that matter.

I believe that Fuzzy Bear is not qualified to speak on behalf of women.

If that is your argument, pro-choice men on this thread aren't qualified to speak on behalf of women on this issue, either.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

He thinks any measure to prevent a child after the last conscious act to create that child constitutes killing a person and cannot be justified, even theoretically.

I believe that at conception (sperm plus egg getting together) a human life, complete with an eternal soul, is created at that point.  It is not a fully developed human life, but neither is a newborn infant, for that matter.

I believe that Fuzzy Bear is not qualified to speak on behalf of women.

If that is your argument, pro-choice men on this thread aren't qualified to speak on behalf of women on this issue, either.

I suppose Northern Liberals weren't qualified to speak up for Southern Blacks in 1960, according to PR logic.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Yes, because speaking out in support of the rights of other people that were being restricted and disrespected is clearly the same thing as speaking out in support of restricting and disrespecting other people's rights.

You got me there.

[fhtagn]

Yes, because speaking out in support of the rights of other people that were being restricted and disrespected is clearly the same thing as speaking out in support of restricting and disrespecting other people's rights.

You got me there.

Not all women support pro-choice policies. You advocating for it is equally as disrespectful as pro-life men advocating their position.

To use your logic: you don't have a uterus, you don't get a say on this issue.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Yes, because speaking out in support of the rights of other people that were being restricted and disrespected is clearly the same thing as speaking out in support of restricting and disrespecting other people's rights.

You got me there.

I consider myself speaking up for the lives of the unborn humans who can't speak, and whose very humanity (and all the rights that they have been endowed with by their Creator by virtue of their humanity) has been as denied by a Policized SCOTUS of days of yore.

[Karpatsky]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

I don't understand why there's such a debate on what the fetus constitutes at any given point, to be honest, as I don't see this as particularly relevant. Had I connected myself to you as you exist today for some sort of life-sustaining procedure like a blood transfusion, I would have the right to disconnect myself for any reason, even if it resulted in your death, simply because you have no inherent right to use my organs beyond what I allow. Restricting abortion ability like this is in my view morally comparable to forced organ transplants.

You need to listen to the universe song then.
Would it be OK if there was some sort Eminent Domain? Basically every knocked up person gets Medicare and 1000 a month under the condition that they go to the church clinic every week. Every person who has at least a 1% chance of getting pregnant each time during unprotected sex gets Medicaid.

I don't understand.

That if you own yourself and the government wants to alienate then the government must compensate

I would consider bodily autonomy a fundamental and inalienable human right.

[Sestak]

Fuzzy, a question.

Around 75% of fertilized eggs fail to develop to birth. Do you contend, then, that over 85% of the deaths each year (since the birth rate is over twice as high as the death rate of people who are born) are unborn zygotes, embryos, and feti?

Furthermore, since you have stated that all unborn life is innocent and thus presumably destined for heaven, while a substantial fraction of humans who have been born are presumably not, do you contend that 90% of the composition of heaven are unborn children?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

If you believe in heaven, I don't see why saying there are a bunch of unborn children there would be such a leap of faith, comparatively speaking.

[7,052,770]

If you believe in heaven, I don't see why saying there are a bunch of unborn children there would be such a leap of faith, comparatively speaking.

"When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded mostly by fertilized eggs that didn't implant!!" doesn't have the same ring to it as "When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded by your friends and family who have died!!"

I feel pretty confident in saying that most Americans would be weirded out by any priest or preacher who mentioned the first statement from the pulpit.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Fuzzy, a question.

Around 75% of fertilized eggs fail to develop to birth. Do you contend, then, that over 85% of the deaths each year (since the birth rate is over twice as high as the death rate of people who are born) are unborn zygotes, embryos, and feti?

Furthermore, since you have stated that all unborn life is innocent and thus presumably destined for heaven, while a substantial fraction of humans who have been born are presumably not, do you contend that 90% of the composition of heaven are unborn children?

All children under the age of 12 that die go to Heaven.  Age 12 is the Biblical age of responsibility.

I believe far more people go to Heaven than many think.  That's because of the graciousness of God, the fact that He gives people up to the last tick of life for people to come to Saving Faith, and because I don't believe God would have his Only Begotten Son perform His Redemptive Work on the Cross, only to have it be soundly rejected.  People DO reject Jesus, but I don't believe that it's this teeny tiny percentage of adult humans that die In Christ.

I do not underestimate the Power of Christ's Redemptive Work on the Cross.  

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

If you believe in heaven, I don't see why saying there are a bunch of unborn children there would be such a leap of faith, comparatively speaking.

"When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded mostly by fertilized eggs that didn't implant!!" doesn't have the same ring to it as "When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded by your friends and family who have died!!"

I feel pretty confident in saying that most Americans would be weirded out by any priest or preacher who mentioned the first statement from the pulpit.

Well heaven's probably a weird place anyway, compared to what we expect.

What stage of development is necessary for heaven, would you say?

[Crumpets]

If you believe in heaven, I don't see why saying there are a bunch of unborn children there would be such a leap of faith, comparatively speaking.

"When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded mostly by fertilized eggs that didn't implant!!" doesn't have the same ring to it as "When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded by your friends and family who have died!!"

I feel pretty confident in saying that most Americans would be weirded out by any priest or preacher who mentioned the first statement from the pulpit.

Off-topic, but personally I have a hard time imagining that heaven requires you to openly interact with all the other heavenly denizens. I seriously doubt my ex has done anything to preclude her from going to heaven, but if I have to spend an eternity in the afterlife with her living half a mile down Heaven Street, I may just have to become a disbeliever.

[Fuzzy Bear]

If you believe in heaven, I don't see why saying there are a bunch of unborn children there would be such a leap of faith, comparatively speaking.

"When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded mostly by fertilized eggs that didn't implant!!" doesn't have the same ring to it as "When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded by your friends and family who have died!!"

I feel pretty confident in saying that most Americans would be weirded out by any priest or preacher who mentioned the first statement from the pulpit.

Off-topic, but personally I have a hard time imagining that heaven requires you to openly interact with all the other heavenly denizens. I seriously doubt my ex has done anything to preclude her from going to heaven, but if I have to spend an eternity in the afterlife with her living half a mile down Heaven Street, I may just have to become a disbeliever.

No one is married or given in marriage in Heaven.

As there is no sadness in Heaven, there will be no remembrance of sadness on Earth.

[Person Man]

If you believe in heaven, I don't see why saying there are a bunch of unborn children there would be such a leap of faith, comparatively speaking.

"When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded mostly by fertilized eggs that didn't implant!!" doesn't have the same ring to it as "When you go to Heaven, you'll be surrounded by your friends and family who have died!!"

I feel pretty confident in saying that most Americans would be weirded out by any priest or preacher who mentioned the first statement from the pulpit.

Off-topic, but personally I have a hard time imagining that heaven requires you to openly interact with all the other heavenly denizens. I seriously doubt my ex has done anything to preclude her from going to heaven, but if I have to spend an eternity in the afterlife with her living half a mile down Heaven Street, I may just have to become a disbeliever.

No one is married or given in marriage in Heaven.

As there is no sadness in Heaven, there will be no remembrance of sadness on Earth.

When you put it this way, it almost sounds Eastern. This entire discussion sounds VERY Eastern.

[Joe Republic]

Okay, so what do the aborted/miscarried embryos do in Heaven?  Do they just float around in a huge Heavenly Petri Dish?  Do they have wings?

[Dr. Arch]

Of all this discussion, it's all the mindless and puerile sanctifying, while ignoring the science behind conception and gestation that really annoys me.

It's why I disengage immediately from the conversation. The discussion happens in bad faith, and there's no way of convincing the opposition of anything because they've already decided to dismiss the facts.

And all this is before considering the obvious move to control women even further. They won't stop at a total ban of abortion. They'll go on to birth control (see this happening in some states already), sex education, so on and so forth.