should you have to pass a standardized test to graduate HS/go to college

[dead0man]

Most places to the "left" of the US have it, but the "left" in the US would sh**t their pants if something like that was tried here.  What part of that is wrong?

[HarrisonL]

I really loathe our education system as it is now, specifically its varied message and lack of deviation of standardisation. In art standard form works wonderfully, same with Philosophy, but with Education it promotes "teaching to a test" not "teaching to remember."

[S019]

Yes

[Former President tack50]

No to graduate, yes to go to college (which was the status quo here until like 3 years ago)

[Sirius_]

Standardized testing is just one of the multiple things that do nothing but cause additional stress and doesn't help anyone. We need less, not more, and several countries have shown this to be the case.

[MasterJedi]

Standardized tests just mean you're good at memorization and tests, not that you're actually intelligent or that college will work for you.

[ElectionsGuy]

A big fat NO.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

A big fat NO.

[Sestak]

Standardized tests just mean you're good at memorization and tests, not that you're actually intelligent or that college will work for you.

[Sestak]

Most places to the "left" of the US have it, but the "left" in the US would sh**t their pants if something like that was tried here.

Worth noting that this dynamic exists quite frequently regarding certain social authoritarian policies in Europe etc. Take internet privacy/regulation, for example.

[RFayette]

Isn't this already the case in a lot of states?  For example, New York has the pretty famous Regents exams for just this purpose.

Anyway, I don't think standardized tests should be necessary per se to graduate, but given the large number of community college students in remedial math and English, there needs to be more emphasis on ensuring those who graduate are functionally literate and numerate.

[Senator Incitatus]

Yes, but it doesn't have to be on general aptitude. For example, those studying the trades should be able to receive a diploma that indicates they have mastered an adequate understanding of their intended trade.

I'm a believer that success in education is a combination of ability and interest. For example, I have a friend who got a high school GPA of <1.5. He's not particularly dumb; he just focused on becoming a professional baseball player and was extremely talented and skilled in that area. I don't think that should prevent him from graduating.

[Karpatsky]

While standardized tests are used too broadly in the current education environment, there are absolutely things that a functional adult must know that can and should be measured by standardized test - basic math and reading comprehension at minimum, ideally some basic history and science as well. You need some standards.

[Former President tack50]

Standardized tests just mean you're good at memorization and tests, not that you're actually intelligent or that college will work for you.

You can easily design tests where you can't get away with raw memorization (though it's hard). Math and much of sciences come to mind. Foreign languages are also an easy place to get a non-memorizable test.

Really of the high school subjects I rememeber taking, only Spanish (first language), History and Philosophy were memorizable (and with this last one you still could easily design a more abstract exam that can't be memorized)

[RFayette]

Standardized tests just mean you're good at memorization and tests, not that you're actually intelligent or that college will work for you.

You can easily design tests where you can't get away with raw memorization (though it's hard). Math and much of sciences come to mind. Foreign languages are also an easy place to get a non-memorizable test.

Really of the high school subjects I rememeber taking, only Spanish (first language), History and Philosophy were memorizable (and with this last one you still could easily design a more abstract exam that can't be memorized)

Yeah, to some degree the SAT Math is gameable (using superficial tricks/tactics without an underlying grasp of the material), but if you go up to the level of say, AP Calculus, this is much less the case.  While it's absolutely true that standardized tests are very imperfect means of predicting college success, I'd push back on the argument that they measure nothing more than one's ability to take tests.  Even the SAT Math exam is a pretty strong indicator of basic quantitative ability, and a high score on the verbal parts of standardized tests also is very telling about how well someone is able to read and understand basic prose.  Take a person who received an 800 on SAT Math and another with a 550.  Who do you think is more likely to succeed in college courses like Calculus 1-3 and linear algebra?  This isn't difficult. 

With all that said, GPA is generally seen as a stronger predictor than the SAT of overall success in college; however, having a standardized metric that can account for things like variance in school difficulty seems important:  someone who had a low GPA because they went to a school notorious for harsh grading should have some ability to show his skills on a nationally-normed test and have this be taken into account. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What possible argument is there against this?

[dead0man]

What possible argument is there against this?

1.a lot of people think EVERYbody should have a High School diploma
2.standardized tests and minorities don't get a long
3.standardized tests have a bad rap in this country because many (most?, all?) school districts spend an every increasing amount of time taking and "training" for these test and parents have a problem with that.

probably a few more.  Note, these are not my positions.

[Sestak]

What possible argument is there against this?

The vast majority of standardized tests in the US are pay to win at least to a degree.

Students who have the time and money for intense tutoring sessions specifically tailored to the test will have higher scores than those who don't but are otherwise at the same competency level.

[RFayette]

What possible argument is there against this?

The vast majority of standardized tests in the US are pay to win at least to a degree.

Students who have the time and money for intense tutoring sessions specifically tailored to the test will have higher scores than those who don't but are otherwise at the same competency level.

These are fair criticisms, but by international standards, the US does not emphasize standardized tests much at all.  

https://hechingerreport.org/24830-2/

[brucejoel99]

In a perfect world, it should be required for students to pass a state test to graduate, or we might as well just hand out diplomas to all the kids, including the ones that put forth absolutely no effort whatsoever to graduate.

We don't live in a perfect world, though. So when considering the status quo of our education system, no for high school graduation, but still a yes for going to college.

[Sirius_]

While standardized tests are used too broadly in the current education environment, there are absolutely things that a functional adult must know that can and should be measured by standardized test - basic math and reading comprehension at minimum, ideally some basic history and science as well. You need some standards.

If you have don't have a rock bottom GPA you don't need a test to prove you know these things.

[dead0man]

While standardized tests are used too broadly in the current education environment, there are absolutely things that a functional adult must know that can and should be measured by standardized test - basic math and reading comprehension at minimum, ideally some basic history and science as well. You need some standards.

If you have don't have a rock bottom GPA you don't need a test to prove you know these things.

bull spit.  High Schools GPAs are the only thing less reliable than University GPAs.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I don't think standardized tests should be necessary per se to graduate, but given the large number of community college students in remedial math and English, there needs to be more emphasis on ensuring those who graduate are functionally literate and numerate.

[Former President tack50]

While standardized tests are used too broadly in the current education environment, there are absolutely things that a functional adult must know that can and should be measured by standardized test - basic math and reading comprehension at minimum, ideally some basic history and science as well. You need some standards.

If you have don't have a rock bottom GPA you don't need a test to prove you know these things.

bull spit.  High Schools GPAs are the only thing less reliable than University GPAs.

For what's worth normally in places with mandatory college tests (like most of Europe) both GPA (or equivalent) and the standardized test are used for graduating and going to college.

Here in particular it was graded on 14 points: 6 based on your average high school grades (years 11 and 12); 4 points from the mandatory sections of the standardized test and up to 4 points from the optional standardized tests.

[Sestak]

While standardized tests are used too broadly in the current education environment, there are absolutely things that a functional adult must know that can and should be measured by standardized test - basic math and reading comprehension at minimum, ideally some basic history and science as well. You need some standards.

If you have don't have a rock bottom GPA you don't need a test to prove you know these things.

bull spit.  High Schools GPAs are the only thing less reliable than University GPAs.

Yeah high school GPAs depend on so many damn things (what school you’re in, your class load, etc.) they really aren’t reliable just with a number.