Should Bernie Sanders put "he/him" in his Twitter bio?

[John Dule]

4. um....

Perhaps they don't want others to think that they're mentally ill.

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

What else do you call it then?

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

4. um....

Perhaps they don't want others to think that they're mentally ill.

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

What else do you call it then?

Normal.

[Grassroots]

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. It's literally a disorder and not normal. There's a reason why some health organizations held out until 2018 before finally scumming to pressure from people who just can't handle being labeled that way, and keep telling themselves that it's totally normal. It's not.

[Karpatsky]

In a society where 95%+ of people fit into a gender binary, there is no reason for someone who has a 0% chance of being misgendered to do this. As much as the term is misused, this would be a true example of empty virtue signaling.

[Wells]

In a society where 95%+ of people fit into a gender binary, there is no reason for someone who has a 0% chance of being misgendered to do this. As much as the term is misused, this would be a true example of empty virtue signaling.

There is a very good reason - normalization of the practice.

Though I personally put pronouns in my Twitter bio just because I found it funny how mad some people got about it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The vast majority of people who do this are:

1-not transgender and
2-have a gender that's blatantly obvious

I suppose it could make sense if their avatar isn't a pic of themselves or they aren't using their real name anywhere...but that's obviously not true of any politicians, hence no reason for that. And honestly while those things apply to my Twitter account I'd hardly be offended if for some reason someone assumed I was a woman and cisgendered me.

There's also the fact that basically everyone who does this is utterly INSUFFERABLE for unrelated reasons, such as that lady who made a long thread calling out how white people should not engage in "digital blackface", aka posting memes or reaction gifs that included black people. And that's just the first example that came into my mind.

[Karpatsky]

In a society where 95%+ of people fit into a gender binary, there is no reason for someone who has a 0% chance of being misgendered to do this. As much as the term is misused, this would be a true example of empty virtue signaling.

There is a very good reason - normalization of the practice.

Though I personally put pronouns in my Twitter bio just because I found it funny how mad some people got about it.

That strikes me as a circular argument - people with no practical reason to do it should do it anyways so people with no practical reason to do it should feel that they need to do it.

[Skunk]

The vast majority of people who do this are:

1-not transgender and
2-have a gender that's blatantly obvious

I suppose it could make sense if their avatar isn't a pic of themselves or they aren't using their real name anywhere...but that's obviously not true of any politicians, hence no reason for that. And honestly while those things apply to my Twitter account I'd hardly be offended if for some reason someone assumed I was a woman and cisgendered me.

There's also the fact that basically everyone who does this is utterly INSUFFERABLE for unrelated reasons, such as that lady who made a long thread calling out how white people should not engage in "digital blackface", aka posting memes or reaction gifs that included black people. And that's just the first example that came into my mind.

Maybe you should actually listen to trans people on this issue? We WANT cis people and gender-conforming people to put pronouns in their bios in an attempt to normalize the practice so people with pronouns in their bio aren't automatically presumed to be/outed as trans.

And as for your point about how you hate people with pronouns in their bios for other reasons that you agree aren't related/relevant to this at all, a few dips**ts aren't representative of this at all.

And finally, obviously it doesn't matter whether or not Bernie Sanders puts his pronouns in his bio and it's blatantly clear you just made this thread to bitch about pronouns. Congrats I guess.

[ON Progressive]

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. It's literally a disorder and not normal. There's a reason why some health organizations held out until 2018 before finally scumming to pressure from people who just can't handle being labeled that way, and keep telling themselves that it's totally normal. It's not.

You can be transgender without gender dysphoria.

[Senator Incitatus]

Not sure why the candidate currently hemorrhaging support from older voters should do something that primarily appeals to the under-20 crowd.

[Kleine Scheiße]

The vast majority of people who do this are:

1-not transgender and
2-have a gender that's blatantly obvious

the vast majority of people who say this:

1. don't know what they're talking about
2. are huge fans of tulsi gabbard's feet

no offense it's not about you dude it's about all the other people like you that i don't like for arbitrary non-reasons

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And this:

Yes; should be legally required of every citizen.

Would be unconstitutional.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here's a good analogy: if people who put pronouns in their bios ever took control the resulting government would be like Jerry Brown's in California Über Alles.

[John Dule]

4. um....

Perhaps they don't want others to think that they're mentally ill.

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

What else do you call it then?

Normal.

Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The vast majority of people who do this are:

1-not transgender and
2-have a gender that's blatantly obvious

I suppose it could make sense if their avatar isn't a pic of themselves or they aren't using their real name anywhere...but that's obviously not true of any politicians, hence no reason for that. And honestly while those things apply to my Twitter account I'd hardly be offended if for some reason someone assumed I was a woman and cisgendered me.

There's also the fact that basically everyone who does this is utterly INSUFFERABLE for unrelated reasons, such as that lady who made a long thread calling out how white people should not engage in "digital blackface", aka posting memes or reaction gifs that included black people. And that's just the first example that came into my mind.

Maybe you should actually listen to trans people on this issue? We WANT cis people and gender-conforming people to put pronouns in their bios in an attempt to normalize the practice so people with pronouns in their bio aren't automatically presumed to be/outed as trans.

And as for your point about how you hate people with pronouns in their bios for other reasons that you agree aren't related/relevant to this at all, a few dips**ts aren't representative of this at all.

And finally, obviously it doesn't matter whether or not Bernie Sanders puts his pronouns in his bio and it's blatantly clear you just made this thread to bitch about pronouns. Congrats I guess.

The reason I don't like this is because of the people who take it off Twitter. Aka try to make everyone state pronouns in public. If this happened toward me it would F[INKS]ING HORRIFYING and traumatizing...and it actually is for many trans people as well.
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/09/19/why-asking-students-their-preferred-pronoun-not-good-idea-opinion

In my gender class, as it has come to be known, I ask that students journal in response to readings, class discussions or a prompt on a controversial issue. Occasionally, those entries get personal. In a recent year, a student revealed in an entry that they thought they might be transgender. The next time I spoke with the student alone, with the best of intentions, I asked what pronoun they wanted me to use. Their eyes filled with tears as they answered, “I don’t know.” At about the same time, I asked someone at a conference what pronoun to use, and she burst into tears. She later explained that she had hoped that she “passed” and that my question made her feel like she did not.

Those incidents taught me that questions about pronoun use can be painful to the very people to whom we are trying to signal support. So why do many institutions and their faculty members persist in the wholesale practice of requesting pronouns on the first day of class, especially with young adults who are in the process of figuring out who they are? The result of this practice is that students whose gender presentation may not match their gender identity are forced to lie or to out themselves in a new and possibly unsafe environment, while those who are unsure of their gender identity are made to feel uncomfortable and forced to choose a pronoun.

That's why I want this wiped out, it's a horrific and traumatizing thing for many cis and trans people.

[Bacon King]

4. um....

Perhaps they don't want others to think that they're mentally ill.

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

What else do you call it when someone wants to mutilate/remove functioning parts of their body?

1. not every trans person wants, or even has a desire to, go through gender reassignment surgery

2. there's so many examples I could use to point out a hypocritical double standard here, but after some consideration I've decided to go with: based on your logic most Americans, Muslims, and Jews are mentally ill because they circumcise their sons but somehow I doubt you spend your time denying the legitimacy of their existence on the internet

3. aren't you supposed to be a libertarian? why do you care so much about what people do with their own bodies when they aren't hurting someone else? or does your small government ideology not apply to "people whose genitalia irrationally bother me"

[Bacon King]

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. It's literally a disorder and not normal. There's a reason why some health organizations held out until 2018 before finally scumming to pressure from people who just can't handle being labeled that way, and keep telling themselves that it's totally normal. It's not.

It's not a mental illness and the fact that some health institutions clung to their bigoted, outdated, and biased definitions far longer than they should have doesn't say anything about the  truthfulness of their claims. This is just an empty appeal to authority to an organization you've already admitted can be wrong. The only thing different between you and I is that I think they're correct now, whereas you're a reactionary who thinks the past was correct. I'm sure you also think these "disorders" are valid too!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_DSM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania


Also it's worth pointing out that the reason gender dysphoria remained an illness in the DSM for so long was because there were some serious concerns that it would be a step backwards in practice-- in many jurisdictions, the laws required that specific diagnosis before a doctor could legally prescribe hormone pills or surgery. I don't know the details but the reason transgenderism remained listed as a disorder for so long was primarily a pragmatic concern to ensure the people in the trans community wouldn't be forced to quit their hormones and etc. It's not like the APA is a bunch of bigots like you who were suddenly """""pressured"""" a year ago. It was a practical and pragmatic choice and it took time to remove its stigma without removing health care accessibility from people they were attempting to help

(edit i have more to say for example about the fact that gender dysphoria can be a legitimate health concern that requires attention without at all implying it's in any way a bad thing but at this point I've already submitted the post and I'm just editing what I've already typed so I'll just write more later instead of shoving it in this post)

[John Dule]

4. um....

Perhaps they don't want others to think that they're mentally ill.

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

What else do you call it when someone wants to mutilate/remove functioning parts of their body?

1. not every trans person wants, or even has a desire to, go through gender reassignment surgery

2. there's so many examples I could use to point out a hypocritical double standards here, but after some consideration I've decided to go with: based on your logic most Americans, Muslims, and Jews are mentally ill because they circumcise their sons but somehow I doubt you spend your time denying the legitimacy of their existence on the internet

3. aren't you supposed to be a libertarian? why do you care so much about what people do with their own bodies when they aren't hurting someone else? or does your small government ideology not apply to "people whose genitalia irrationally bother me"

Glad you brought up circumcision, because I do think that it should be illegal in virtually all cases. You have no right to mutilate the healthy genitals of your infant son against his will. Female circumcision is banned for this reason; the double standard here is blatant and I hope we can agree on this. I may have mentioned this on Atlas before in reference to Andrew Yang, but I don't recall for sure.

Now, of course, if a consenting adult wants to remove their foreskin (or more), have at it. I would stress, however, that when someone is considered "mentally ill" we often prevent them from making life-altering decisions (someone with depression would not be allowed to go through with assisted suicide, for instance). I believe this is wrong, but that forces me to endorse allowing mentally ill people of every stripe to decide what's best for themselves in every aspect of their lives, even if their behavior ultimately becomes self-destructive. I don't like this train of thought, but if I want to avoid being a hypocrite, I have to accept it. So I would never begrudge a transgender person their right to mutilate/alter their own body, as that's totally up to them. I think you're assuming that I'm calling gender dysphoria a "mental illness" with the intention to then prevent people from getting surgeries, which is not the case.

Still, I dislike the recent left-wing trend towards trying to "normalize" this disorder, much in the way that I dislike the mentality of de-stigmatizing obesity. In both cases, we tell people with health issues (chronic obesity, gender dysphoria) that there is nothing wrong with them and that society is the problem. In the long run, I think this can be harmful-- we're becoming fatter as a country now, which is of course unhealthy, and I don't think that the disproportionately high suicide rate among transgender people (even those who have transitioned) can be explained away solely by some anonymous internet wrongthinker's refusal to address them by their proper pronouns. Anyway, you can call me "transphobic" if you like, but like "Islamophobic," that word has been overused to the point that it has lost the minimal meaning it had to begin with.

[7,052,770]

1. chill with the BRTD hate y'all

No, and this is a stupid thread.

After all these years, don't you get tired of making these kinds of threads?

his unique quirks are what make him a forum treasure and that includes random thread creation. there's nothing wrong with posting unusual threads especially because they bring about interesting discussion that otherwise wouldn't happen (if you were to go back and measure it I'm certain BRTD threads are much larger in both post count and word count when compared by the forum average).

It's not like he even disagrees with you guys who think this thread his stupid! He said himself he ignores anyone who puts pronouns in their bio.



2. You people all have an insane (and horrendously anti-trans) social media litmus test, apparently get set off by incredibly trivial things, and you jump at the opportunity to judge a book by its cover

if someone does this on Twitter it's a surefire sign they aren't worth paying attention to.

Yes, all politicians should do this so I never actually vote for a they/them.

People who put pronouns in their bio are automatically not taken seriously, at least by me.

What you're literally saying here is "I intentionally ignore trans voices" as well as the voices of their well-intentioned allies. This hostility is surprising and bizarre. It says a lot about you, in a very bad way, if you're actually out there literally ignoring an entire class of people for such a trivial reason (and before you ask, this is coming from someone who doesn't have twitter bio pronouns and has never even considered the idea). This kind of fear towards change, the unknown, and what you don't understand is literally the same thing driving Trump's popular support. If you find yourself agreeing with alt-right voices like Jordan Peterson and flip out over literally something as trivial as pronoun use either you're autistic or you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror to come to terms with who you are and what you believe. _{(And I'm not using "autistic" as an insult, for the record, I mean it's genuinely a sign of autism spectrum disorders to place a very disproportionate degree of importance on a trivial matter such as this. I'm saying if you're on the spectrum and think this way then you have your own reasons and you're not necessarily a bigot).}

Normal people do not care about something as trivial as pronoun use at all. If you find yourself this bothered it, unless you're a huge asshole who openly hates trans people then you should probably check yourself because it sounds like you're being very motivated by a subconscious bias here


3. Others (Mikado and SWE) have already made points about your absurd insistence on prescriptivism far better than I could have. I'll only add that not only is prescriptivism both hypocritical and outdated, its proponents also have a tendency to be incredibly racist (manifested via selective hatred of AAVE in particular).


4. um....

Perhaps they don't want others to think that they're mentally ill.

if you think transgenderism is a mental illness then please kindly GTFO back to the era where that sort of thought belongs, so you can measure intelligence by skull size and sterilize the unhygienic races in peace

Thx for only quoting only part of my post to make it look anti-trans when the entire post is actually 100% pro-trans

[Bacon King]

Still, I dislike the recent left-wing trend towards trying to "normalize" this disorder, much in the way that I dislike the mentality of de-stigmatizing obesity. In both cases, we tell people with health issues (chronic obesity, gender dysphoria) that there is nothing wrong with them and that society is the problem. In the long run, I think this can be harmful-- we're becoming fatter as a country now, which is of course unhealthy, and I don't think that the disproportionately high suicide rate among transgender people (even those who have transitioned) can be explained away solely by some anonymous internet wrongthinker's refusal to address them by their proper pronouns. Anyway, you can call me "transphobic" if you like, but like "Islamophobic," that word has been overused to the point that it has lost the minimal meaning it had to begin with.

The anti-trans argument based on concerns about suicide is the very lowest caliber of grotesquely specious and hypocritical argument. Have you considered the fact that possibly, just maybe, the reason members of the trans community are so prone to mental illness is because people like you delegitimize their very existence and identity? Because they have to struggle just to be understood in any meaningful way? That they live in a society that forcefully and repeatedly tells them they are deluded for literally just trying to be who they want to be? For eff's sake we live in a country where it's legal to LITERALLY MURDER someone just for being trans. Is it any wonder that serious depression and other mental illnesses occur so often among the community? And don't even attempt to claim any BS justifying your opinion with the point that suicide rates are high post-transition. There's an extremely insane pressure there to "pass" and I have seen first-hand in so many different scenarios how extremely and ruthlessly a trans person can be bullied just for the "offense" of not looking right. The suicide rate is high because people like you seek to dehumanize them at literally every opportunity. There is a large body of studies and other scientific evidence out there proving that the suicide rate among the openly-trans are far, far, lower when surrounded by a loving and suppportive family, friends, community, and society.

It's frankly shameful and offensive for you to delegitimize transgender identity entirely based on the affects of the delegitimization of transgender identity. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you suddenly are allowed to use circular logic to justify ruining people's lives

[Bacon King]

Thx for only quoting only part of my post to make it look anti-trans when the entire post is actually 100% pro-trans

sorry i was trying to make a point about it being silly to care so much about people who put pronouns in twitter bios but in hindsight yeah that's really trivial and splitting hairs when people are here literally denying the right of the trans community to exist

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Thx for only quoting only part of my post to make it look anti-trans when the entire post is actually 100% pro-trans

sorry i was trying to make a point about it being silly to care so much about people who put pronouns in twitter bios but in hindsight yeah that's really trivial and splitting hairs when people are here literally denying the right of the trans community to exist

As I said above, my issue is not so much in the case of Twitter bios where it's silly but harmless (my main point was to bring attention to the fact that literally not a single elected official does this), but rather about the vile practice of trying to enforce this in real life, which for many people is a very negative experience ranging from an annoyance to downright traumatizing. For both cis and trans people. I think the ultra-woke are not only ignoring facts that are obvious but that they tend not to care about, such as that normies who aren't familiar with this and are very obviously male or female (aka most people) are going to find it f[inks]ing weird and a turnoff, but that it would be much worse than that for certain people, such as for example a cis woman who has a somewhat androgene appearance but still obviously presents as female. And why many trans people don't like it for very valid reasons, like the anecdote above.

I remember reading a trans subreddit on this and found out that not only did about half of the respondents not like this practice, one made the kind of interesting comparison to that of the "white savior" trope, and that cis people who think they are so noble for doing this are basically a variation of it.

[John Dule]

Still, I dislike the recent left-wing trend towards trying to "normalize" this disorder, much in the way that I dislike the mentality of de-stigmatizing obesity. In both cases, we tell people with health issues (chronic obesity, gender dysphoria) that there is nothing wrong with them and that society is the problem. In the long run, I think this can be harmful-- we're becoming fatter as a country now, which is of course unhealthy, and I don't think that the disproportionately high suicide rate among transgender people (even those who have transitioned) can be explained away solely by some anonymous internet wrongthinker's refusal to address them by their proper pronouns. Anyway, you can call me "transphobic" if you like, but like "Islamophobic," that word has been overused to the point that it has lost the minimal meaning it had to begin with.

The anti-trans argument based on concerns about suicide is the very lowest caliber of grotesquely specious and hypocritical argument. Have you considered the fact that possibly, just maybe, the reason members of the trans community are so prone to mental illness is because people like you delegitimize their very existence and identity? Because they have to struggle just to be understood in any meaningful way? That they live in a society that forcefully and repeatedly tells them they are deluded for literally just trying to be who they want to be? For eff's sake we live in a country where it's legal to LITERALLY MURDER someone just for being trans. Is it any wonder that serious depression and other mental illnesses occur so often among the community? And don't even attempt to claim any BS justifying your opinion with the point that suicide rates are high post-transition. There's an extremely insane pressure there to "pass" and I have seen first-hand in so many different scenarios how extremely and ruthlessly a trans person can be bullied just for the "offense" of not looking right. The suicide rate is high because people like you seek to dehumanize them at literally every opportunity. There is a large body of studies and other scientific evidence out there proving that the suicide rate among the openly-trans are far, far, lower when surrounded by a loving and suppportive family, friends, community, and society.

It's frankly shameful and offensive for you to delegitimize transgender identity entirely based on the affects of the delegitimization of transgender identity. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you suddenly are allowed to use circular logic to justify ruining people's lives

You truly live in a bubble if you don't see anything wrong with what you just posted. I said nothing to 'dehumanize' transgenders; I simply questioned whether it is right to encourage someone suffering from mental distress to make life-altering decisions with their body. You are an emotional hypochondriac. Respond to something I actually said or don't bother engaging in this conversation any longer.

[Middle-aged Europe]

This question elicits a definite "maybe" from me.

[Bacon King]

You truly live in a bubble if you don't see anything wrong with what you just posted. I said nothing to 'dehumanize' transgenders; I simply questioned whether it is right to encourage someone suffering from mental distress to make life-altering decisions with their body. You are an emotional hypochondriac. Respond to something I actually said or don't bother engaging in this conversation any longer.

The problem here is that your "simple question" is based on not even one, but several simultaneous false pretenses. You're either knowingly being disingenuous, or you're intentionally ignoring facts so you can make sweeping claims about other people's lives based on nothing other than your feelings. The problem is, however, that facts don't care about your feelings.

1. your question ignores the fact that the "life-altering decisions" are the scientifically proven cure for the "mental distress" you're talking about. Even if you insist on framing it in terms of a mental illness, it's cartoonishly evil to claim that the presence of the 'condition' disqualifies someone from the treatment for that condition.

"Oh, your gender isn't the one you were assigned at birth? sorry but that means you have MENTAL DISTRESS and we can't do anything to help you. Sorry but we can only give you medical assistance for gender reassignment if you are perfectly comfortable with the gender you've always been assigned! Too bad, sucks for you! If only you didn't want to change your gender, then we could totally change your gender!" - literally how you think doctors work

2. you seem to be operating under some sort of bizarre assumption that doctors are literally chomping at the bit to perform reassignment surgeries at every possible opportunity. That couldn't be further from the truth at all. I have friends who have transitioned, both trans-men and trans-women, and the amount of hoops they are required to jump through is frankly insane. You have to see a specialist doctor repeatedly over the course of a year (sometimes longer), regularly verifying for them that your dysphoria is consistent over a long period of time, that it significantly impacts your quality of life, and that it's not manageable by any other means. But wait, there's more! That's what is required just to be prescribed transgender hormone therapy which provides only a slow and gradual change, takes years to fully achieve the desired results, and is up to a certain point entirely reversible. And as far as I know there are absolutely no surgeons out there willing to even give an initial consultation for gender reassignment surgery to someone who hasn't been on those hormones consistently for years.



I don't know if other parts of the country/world have a different approach to it but that's how it's done here -- and honestly I simply don't understand how you could possibly have a problem with it. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were not well-educated about this sort of thing, in which case I apologize for the unwarranted hostility. I have perhaps unfairly characterized your attitude as hostile and malicious when the truth may just be that you didn't know. If this is the case however I do hope you understand where I was coming from!

I was unfairly assuming that you actually knew the facts about what you were speaking out against. You're right, I have been in a bubble -- most people don't have such close experience with the nuances of gender transitioning. My problem is that I always assume the worst of people. I hope you understand where I was coming from, however? Can you imagine how hateful and stupid someone would have to be in order to make such harsh attacks when they knew the all the nuances of the relevant facts? I'm sorry I assumed so little of you -- thanks for giving me the reality check. You're right, nobody is that evil.