Trump and impeachment

[Koharu]

The most prudent thing to do would be to start impeachment proceedings and let the chips fall. That’s what the report recommends. Basically, that he should be impeached for obstructing the investigation and continue to have claims of conspiracy, espionage, and corruption either handled by Congress or in civil court.

This.

The problem is any impeachment won't go anywhere with this GOP senate and will give him new ammunation to play to the victim of any angry left and the so called Deep State. And it will further divide the country. The best way to get rid of the orange clown is
 on 11/03/20.

That may be the only way well get rid of Trump, but what does it say about crime and corruption in our leaders if we do not hold him accountable? Without impeachment, the take-away for politicians is that you can get away with pretty much anything as long as your party is in power. With that, we will have achieved what the Framers feared the most and what Washington specifically warned against: despotism masquerading as democracy.

I think he needs to be impeached, if only to force the Republicans to publicly take a stand and demonstrate that the Democrats are willing to take a stand themselves.

It may turn out to be a poor tactical move, but if the Democrats allow Republicans to continually shape the conflict, they (and American democracy and freedom) will lose in the long run.

Impeaching Trump will force the Republicans to stand with the rule of the law and the Constitution or against it. And when they do vote in favor of dictatorship, we - the citizens of the United States - need to make sure that they are held to account for it, because the ratings-hungry mass media never will.

Precisely. This is why impeachment needs to happen.

[President Johnson]

The most prudent thing to do would be to start impeachment proceedings and let the chips fall. That’s what the report recommends. Basically, that he should be impeached for obstructing the investigation and continue to have claims of conspiracy, espionage, and corruption either handled by Congress or in civil court.

This.

The problem is any impeachment won't go anywhere with this GOP senate and will give him new ammunation to play to the victim of any angry left and the so called Deep State. And it will further divide the country. The best way to get rid of the orange clown is
 on 11/03/20.

That may be the only way well get rid of Trump, but what does it say about crime and corruption in our leaders if we do not hold him accountable? Without impeachment, the take-away for politicians is that you can get away with pretty much anything as long as your party is in power. With that, we will have achieved what the Framers feared the most and what Washington specifically warned against: despotism masquerading as democracy.

I think he needs to be impeached, if only to force the Republicans to publicly take a stand and demonstrate that the Democrats are willing to take a stand themselves.

It may turn out to be a poor tactical move, but if the Democrats allow Republicans to continually shape the conflict, they (and American democracy and freedom) will lose in the long run.

Impeaching Trump will force the Republicans to stand with the rule of the law and the Constitution or against it. And when they do vote in favor of dictatorship, we - the citizens of the United States - need to make sure that they are held to account for it, because the ratings-hungry mass media never will.

Precisely. This is why impeachment needs to happen.

I figured out this causes a true dilema. Trump deserves impeachment for his obstruction of justice alone, but it could backfire since the senate probably won't even get to 51 votes for removal from office. An even if successful, he won't go quiet into the night, that much is certain. Maybe he'd still run in 2020 and would get the Republican nomination? Who knows? The base is loyal to Trump and not to Pence.

[Koharu]

I figured out this causes a true dilema. Trump deserves impeachment for his obstruction of justice alone, but it could backfire since the senate probably won't even get to 51 votes for removal from office. An even if successful, he won't go quiet into the night, that much is certain. Maybe he'd still run in 2020 and would get the Republican nomination? Who knows? The base is loyal to Trump and not to Pence.

Even if impeachment doesn't result in his removal, it still needs to be done. Maybe it does infuriate his base. That doesn't mean he should get away with it. Doing the right thing doesn't mean you're promised the outcome you want, but it is absolutely necessary to do the right thing regardless.

If Congress does not move to impeach, it will have abdicated all power as a co-equal branch with the ability to institute checks and balances. If we cannot impeach someone as clumsy in their crimes as Trump, there is no hope for Congress protecting us against more nuanced corruption and crime.

Impeachment without removal won't completely prevent the fall of our democracy, but it's at least a grab at the rip cord for the parachute instead of accepting an all-out freefall into despotism.

[Koharu]

Here's another great article on the issue. And here's a quote from it!

It is possible to hold an impeachment trial and win elections. Laying out Trump’s high crimes and misdemeanors would not only show his malfeasances, but Republican politicians and voters could no longer turn a blind eye to Trump’s unprecedented misconduct.
Not impeaching Trump is unconstitutional. Considering the ample evidence included in the Mueller report, if Trump cannot be impeached, then no president is worthy of impeachment. If he isn’t, then we might as well remove that clause from the Constitution and make presidents immune from all legal proceedings.

[emailking]

I pretty much agree here. I think Trump loses next year regardless of impeachment. But even if you told me he'll win if impeached and won't if he's not, he should still be impeached.

[J. J.]

If you can't impeach someone who lies to the FBI & who has clearly tried to obstruct an investigation then you're saying a person should be above the law if he has enough power. Your entire constitution becomes toilet paper & your Republic meaningless, existing in name only.

1998?

A. Impeachment did occur in 1998. Clinton was simply acquitted.

B. Literally none of those things listed occurred or were committed by Clinton in any way related to his impeachment, or arguably at all during his administration. He had some ethical issues to be sure, But none of those things were involved.

Once again, reality and you are quickly divorced.

It was perjury in 1998, that was the sole issue; had Clinton bluntly admitted it, there would have been no impeachment.  Slightly before leaving office, Clinton had to surrender law license, and pay a hefty fine, on this issue. 

Not even Mueller has suggested that Trump lied to the FBI. 

[Person Man]

If you can't impeach someone who lies to the FBI & who has clearly tried to obstruct an investigation then you're saying a person should be above the law if he has enough power. Your entire constitution becomes toilet paper & your Republic meaningless, existing in name only.

1998?

A. Impeachment did occur in 1998. Clinton was simply acquitted.

B. Literally none of those things listed occurred or were committed by Clinton in any way related to his impeachment, or arguably at all during his administration. He had some ethical issues to be sure, But none of those things were involved.

Once again, reality and you are quickly divorced.

It was perjury in 1998, that was the sole issue; had Clinton bluntly admitted it, there would have been no impeachment.  Slightly before leaving office, Clinton had to surrender law license, and pay a hefty fine, on this issue. 

Not even Mueller has suggested that Trump lied to the FBI. 

Then again the fact that he repeatedly solicited multiple crimes is interesting. The politics might be different because it really more directly relates to what is happening and he is arrogant and not ashamed of embarrassed of his actions.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

"At the end of the day, what is most important to me is to see that Donald Trump is not re-elected president, and I intend to do everything I can to make sure that doesn't happen.

"But if -- and this is an if -- if for the next year, year-and-a-half, going right into the heart of the election, all that the Congress is talking about is impeaching Trump and Trump, Trump, Trump, and Mueller, Mueller, Mueller, and we're not talking about health care, we're not talking about raising the minimum wage to a living wage, we're not talking about combating climate change, we're not talking about sexism and racism and homophobia, and all of the issues that concern ordinary Americans, what I worry about is that works to Trump's advantage."  -Bernie Sanders

I'm with you, Bernie. Not exactly on the issues but we should be at least talking more about them than Trump impeachment nonsense.

[Bismarck]

Trump should not be impeached while we have a vice president who thinks hanging gays is a good thing to make "jokes" about.

Wasn’t that a Trump joke about Pence?

[Slander and/or Libel]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

LOL.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump Ally Lindsey Graham Once Said President Could Be Impeached for Not Complying with Congressional Oversight

In a video unearthed from December 1998 circulating on Twitter on Friday, the South Carolina legislator passionately states that Richard Nixon could have been impeached for failing to comply with subpoenas from Congress.

"The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury," Graham said two decades ago.

At the time, then-Representative Graham was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, and subsequently served as a manager in the unsuccessful impeachment trial of President Bill Clinton.

President Trump said earlier this week that he would not comply with Congressional attempts to question administration officials.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

LOL.

That's what you all said about Trump winning in 2016. You all really thought Hillary would have won.

The Democrats don't get it.

The critical voters in the middle, the true swing voters, are NOT on board with impeachment.  This is not to say they're on board with Trump, but they are not convinced that impeachment is valid.

[ProudModerate2]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

LOL.

That's what you all said about Trump winning in 2016. You all really thought Hillary would have won.

And do you remember how many blue-avatars were saying that they didn't believe they would lose the House in 2018? How bad of a licking did the GOP take here?

[pbrower2a]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

We Democrats are not asking for a revolution or even an unconstitutional snap election, let alone a military coup. We are waiting for the 2020 election, and we are already preparing for it.

Many of us have read the non-partisan Mueller report in full (to the extent that it is not redacted) or in part, and for many of us it makes President Trump even more objectionable. But we still believe in the Constitution, due process, and the rule of law. We also believe in rational processes and the value of education, as a pattern. That is more than anyone can say of Donald Trump.

"I grab 'em by their (kitty-cats)".
"I love low-information voters".
"Russia -- if you have those (hacked) e-mails I want them".
"There are good people on both sides (of the divide between neo-Nazis and everyone else)"
"I prefer heroes who haven't been captured by the Enemy".

This is by the current successor of a man who said this:

"Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth onto this continent a new Nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal... that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth"

and one who told us

"We have nothing to fear -- but Fear itself!"

Our greatness has always been a consequence of our goodness as a nation. Regrettably the current President brings out the worst in many of us. We who recognize his gross inadequacy already resist in ways that the Constitution allots us so that we will need no revolution, coup, or liberation by foreign powers to deliver us from the evil that Donald Trump represents. Remember that Donald Trump is not the evil itself; he is but a symptom.

It will take liberals and conservatives alike to undo the harm that Trump has brought upon America. We may need institutional change -- maybe even to have a parliamentary system with the powerful and swift vote of no confidence. Our Founding Fathers held the British parliament in contempt because it was full of the King's flunkies. Canada does well enough -- probably because it saw the British parliament after it became responsible and representative.

Donald Trump would not have metaphorically survived a vote of no confidence

[pbrower2a]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

LOL.

That's what you all said about Trump winning in 2016. You all really thought Hillary would have won.

The Democrats don't get it.

The critical voters in the middle, the true swing voters, are NOT on board with impeachment.  This is not to say they're on board with Trump, but they are not convinced that impeachment is valid.

We do not need impeachment; we need only have a free, fair, and competitive election. We have usually taken such for granted. We Democrats have the responsibility to demand an investigation of the real and imagined misconduct of this President -- and to compel Senate and Congressional Republicans, should such misconduct prove real, to either renounce the President or to go down with him. An impeachment might fail to take down this President -- but it can expose him  for the slimeball that he is.

The demographic trends are not with the GOP; the 2018 election shows that. The youngest cohorts of voters -- those under 40 -- are much more liberal than America as a whole, and you can imagine what politics will be like when such people start running for and winning high office.

For now, the 2018 election looks like a portent of future elections. Midterm elections are usually more R-leaning than the preceding and following Presidential elections due to lesser participation by voters. Millennial voters voted unusually heavily for young voters this time.

A 2010- or 2014-style electorate obviously gets Trump re-elected, gives the Republicans the House, and protects the Republican Senate majority. A 2012-stylye or 2016-style electorate makes predictions dicey for everyone. An electorate like those of 2006, 2008, or 2018 is a disaster for the current GOP.  Just imagine what happens if the 2020 electorate is more D than that of 2018.

Current GOP, that is. The current GOP has sunk into demagoguery, economic elitism, and institutional corruption. Democrats will need a strong GOP to keep them honest -- an honest GOP that has respect for due process, the rule of law, and Constitutional norms. If the GOP should fail at that, then we will need a new conservative party as a check on radicalism.     

[Progressive Pessimist]

Trump Ally Lindsey Graham Once Said President Could Be Impeached for Not Complying with Congressional Oversight

In a video unearthed from December 1998 circulating on Twitter on Friday, the South Carolina legislator passionately states that Richard Nixon could have been impeached for failing to comply with subpoenas from Congress.

"The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury," Graham said two decades ago.

At the time, then-Representative Graham was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, and subsequently served as a manager in the unsuccessful impeachment trial of President Bill Clinton.

President Trump said earlier this week that he would not comply with Congressional attempts to question administration officials.

Graham is just the f***ing worst.

[HisGrace]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

LOL.

That's what you all said about Trump winning in 2016. You all really thought Hillary would have won.

And do you remember how many blue-avatars were saying that they didn't believe they would lose the House in 2018? How bad of a licking did the GOP take here?

Wasn't on here for 2012, but all the partisan Republicans I know in real life were 100% convinced Romney was going to completely cream Obama right up to the election. Unlike in the case of Clinton there was no justification for having that opinion. They just think Republicans are going to win YUUUUGEEEE every single election, obviously sometimes Republicans are going to win so sometimes they'll be right. But that doesn't mean they're geniuses with supernatural powers of prediction as they now all think they are.

[pbrower2a]

The Democrats are committing political suicide. They may even lose the House next election.

LOL.

That's what you all said about Trump winning in 2016. You all really thought Hillary would have won.

And do you remember how many blue-avatars were saying that they didn't believe they would lose the House in 2018? How bad of a licking did the GOP take here?

Wasn't on here for 2012, but all the partisan Republicans I know in real life were 100% convinced Romney was going to completely cream Obama right up to the election. Unlike in the case of Clinton there was no justification for having that opinion. They just think Republicans are going to win YUUUUGEEEE every single election, obviously sometimes Republicans are going to win so sometimes they'll be right. But that doesn't mean they're geniuses with supernatural powers of prediction as they now all think they are.

I looked at the polling data. I thought Obama extremely vulnerable in 2011, bit I also saw him doing what was necessary to get re-elected. The polls showed Trump opportunities closing during the summer of 2012. Unlike Trump, Romney did not debase the political process by so soiling it as making his opponents question whether they wanted to participate.

At this point I cannot see a successful impeachment and removal of Donald Trump. In 1974 the Republicans still had some sticklers for political decency in the Senate; this time the GOP seems to be mostly fanatical, spineless boot-lickers who will defend President Trump at any cost., including electoral defeat. They simply cannot see  electoral defeat as a prospect.

OK. Trump is in a worse spot for re-election than was Obama at this time. trump needs to be gaining significantly in approval ratings and chipping away at disapproval ratings -- and he fails at such. Maybe his base intensifies its belief in him -- but his counter-base is getting firmer, and it is beyond the critical 50%.

OK, Trump can win re-election if he gets bare majorities in almost all swing states of 2016 while Democrats simply run up the popular vote in a few states (California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts,  New Jersey, New York, and Washington). While Republicans themselves pose as nice guys, Republican front groups can hammer Democrats in both Houses of Congress. hold the Senate, and take back a House majority and establish the Christian and Corporate State of their dreams -- cheap labor facing monopoly prices and unable to challenge the power of economic elites  who believe that no human suffering can be in excess so long as it serves those elites and can enforce such. But will that work?

Democrats will be wise to have a thorough investigation of the misdeeds of the President and compel Republicans to either ditch him or go down with him. By stopping impeachment in the summer of 2020, Republicans will achieve a Pyrrhic victory.