Welfare Reform Act of 1996...

[John Dibble]

I have SEEN these kinds of people, I have SEEN them be offered jobs at a decent wage...

What do you consider a 'decent wage'?

Initially $10/hr, with a high chance of a raise to $15/hr within the year if they proved themselves good workers.

Hmm.  I suppose in rural Georgia that would be more or less livable.  But why would anyone offer jobs to such people, when they could simply hire more 'mainstream' workers instead?  What was the catch?  Was it working in the chicken-slaughterhouse or something like that?

No catch - just offering honest work to someone who might be down on their luck. The job itself was helping with sprinkler installation. Physical labor to be sure, but nothing terrible, especially once you're used to it(I did it part time when I was 14 for $5/hr).

[nclib]

John,

There are certainly poor people who don't work hard. But there are many poor people who do work hard but can't make it. Why should the latter have to suffer because of the former?

[John Dibble]

John,

There are certainly poor people who don't work hard. But there are many poor people who do work hard but can't make it. Why should the latter have to suffer because of the former?

If a sufficient number of people use the system in a corrupt manner, then you have to reform the system so they are unable to do so. It's pretty much the same reason I don't give money to homeless people anymore - too many people are just trying to get a free ride by taking advantage.

[opebo]

John,

There are certainly poor people who don't work hard. But there are many poor people who do work hard but can't make it. Why should the latter have to suffer because of the former?

If a sufficient number of people use the system in a corrupt manner, then you have to reform the system so they are unable to do so. It's pretty much the same reason I don't give money to homeless people anymore - too many people are just trying to get a free ride by taking advantage.

The people who are recieving leisure from the system are the owners, Dibble, not the oppressed poor who recieve nothing.

[Inverted Things]

exactly education and a good paying job so you can afford children should come before children and marriage.  unforuntely I think it's to politicial incorrect to say this  so no politician will say it. 

I think we have to realistic and compassionate, so long as people are deserving of that compassion.  We shouldn't write people off just because they make a mistake, so long as they are willing to make the effort to put things right.  The problem with many poor people is that they have had an entitlement mentality bred into them, and they're not willing to get themselves over the hump.

Agreed in principle, but the big question is this: Why should the kid be punished for the faults of the parents?

About entitlement mentality, no demographic demonstrates this trait more than senior citizens. Senior citizens complain about welfare while cashing checks from the government and getting discounts everywhere.

By the way, I disapprove of the welfare reform act. I have no problem leaving chronically poor and unmotivated people to their own devices, but their children deserve a chance.

[dazzleman]

exactly education and a good paying job so you can afford children should come before children and marriage.  unforuntely I think it's to politicial incorrect to say this  so no politician will say it. 

I think we have to realistic and compassionate, so long as people are deserving of that compassion.  We shouldn't write people off just because they make a mistake, so long as they are willing to make the effort to put things right.  The problem with many poor people is that they have had an entitlement mentality bred into them, and they're not willing to get themselves over the hump.

Agreed in principle, but the big question is this: Why should the kid be punished for the faults of the parents?

About entitlement mentality, no demographic demonstrates this trait more than senior citizens. Senior citizens complain about welfare while cashing checks from the government and getting discounts everywhere.

By the way, I disapprove of the welfare reform act. I have no problem leaving chronically poor and unmotivated people to their own devices, but their children deserve a chance.

The problem is this -- welfare laws that were intended to safeguard the well being of children hurt them grievously because they encouraged people who were unsuitable to be parents to have children.  Once these children are born, they will be abused, neglected, etc. even if the parents (or more commonly, parent) are collecting welfare that is supposedly to be used for benefit of the children.

It is a counterintuitive thing, but I think that making it more difficult and unattractive for these sorts of people to have and keep children is much kinder toward children than a policy that encourages and subsidizes such people to have children.

[John Dibble]

John,

There are certainly poor people who don't work hard. But there are many poor people who do work hard but can't make it. Why should the latter have to suffer because of the former?

If a sufficient number of people use the system in a corrupt manner, then you have to reform the system so they are unable to do so. It's pretty much the same reason I don't give money to homeless people anymore - too many people are just trying to get a free ride by taking advantage.

The people who are recieving leisure from the system are the owners, Dibble, not the oppressed poor who recieve nothing.

The adults are talking now, come back when you've grown up.

[Inverted Things]

exactly education and a good paying job so you can afford children should come before children and marriage.  unforuntely I think it's to politicial incorrect to say this  so no politician will say it. 

I think we have to realistic and compassionate, so long as people are deserving of that compassion.  We shouldn't write people off just because they make a mistake, so long as they are willing to make the effort to put things right.  The problem with many poor people is that they have had an entitlement mentality bred into them, and they're not willing to get themselves over the hump.

Agreed in principle, but the big question is this: Why should the kid be punished for the faults of the parents?

About entitlement mentality, no demographic demonstrates this trait more than senior citizens. Senior citizens complain about welfare while cashing checks from the government and getting discounts everywhere.

By the way, I disapprove of the welfare reform act. I have no problem leaving chronically poor and unmotivated people to their own devices, but their children deserve a chance.

The problem is this -- welfare laws that were intended to safeguard the well being of children hurt them grievously because they encouraged people who were unsuitable to be parents to have children.  Once these children are born, they will be abused, neglected, etc. even if the parents (or more commonly, parent) are collecting welfare that is supposedly to be used for benefit of the children.

It is a counterintuitive thing, but I think that making it more difficult and unattractive for these sorts of people to have and keep children is much kinder toward children than a policy that encourages and subsidizes such people to have children.

Unfortunately it is inevitable that some children will get abused and neglected. This happens even in privileged households. Unfortunately, any idiot can have children if he/she can find a person of the opposite sex. Leaving those unfit to be parents to their own devices will result in more abuse and neglect since these children won't be connected with a raise in fortunes.

[Erc]

Individuals need three years to find a job? That's an absurdly long amount of time.

Ever been to Kentucky? Three years isn't long enough. About 25 years would be more like it.

Which is why you leave Kentucky....

[opebo]

Individuals need three years to find a job? That's an absurdly long amount of time.

Ever been to Kentucky? Three years isn't long enough. About 25 years would be more like it.

Which is why you leave Kentucky....

Moving from one state to another costs thousands of dollars, Erc.

[dazzleman]

Unfortunately it is inevitable that some children will get abused and neglected. This happens even in privileged households. Unfortunately, any idiot can have children if he/she can find a person of the opposite sex. Leaving those unfit to be parents to their own devices will result in more abuse and neglect since these children won't be connected with a raise in fortunes.

Yaks, this happens with or without welfare.  Welfare programs are a bandaid that often make the problem worse, because they misdiagnose and prevent treatment of the real problem.

While it's true that abuse and neglect take place in middle class and wealthy families, they are disproportionately found among the poor who are not self-sustaining.  There is a direct correlation between the two, in that those who do not have enough on the ball to be self-sustaining, and not responsible or intelligent enough to avoid having children while in that situation, are usually not competent or mentally stable enough to be decent parents.  It's just a sad fact of life, and programs that encourage people like this to have children, and explain away their vile and destructive behavior, do more harm than good IMO.

[opebo]

Unfortunately it is inevitable that some children will get abused and neglected. This happens even in privileged households. Unfortunately, any idiot can have children if he/she can find a person of the opposite sex. Leaving those unfit to be parents to their own devices will result in more abuse and neglect since these children won't be connected with a raise in fortunes.

Yaks, this happens with or without welfare.  Welfare programs are a bandaid that often make the problem worse, because they misdiagnose and prevent treatment of the real problem.

While it's true that abuse and neglect take place in middle class and wealthy families, they are disproportionately found among the poor who are not self-sustaining.  There is a direct correlation between the two, in that those who do not have enough on the ball to be self-sustaining, and not responsible or intelligent enough to avoid having children while in that situation, are usually not competent or mentally stable enough to be decent parents.  It's just a sad fact of life, and programs that encourage people like this to have children, and explain away their vile and destructive behavior, do more harm than good IMO.

You have it backwards, of course, dazzleman, as usual, in terms of responsiblity.

However you are correct that welfare is a 'bandaid' - to cure the illness would require elimination of inequality, in other words some form of revolution overturning the capitalist heirarchy.