Is Venezuela heading to civil war?

[Big Abraham]

I didn't say you denied aid was being sent, I was just pointing out that the article talked specifically about massing 'aid' and not the military.

If you want to stick to that term, go ahead, but it's silly and not helpful to your argument.

I'm using the term the American state media is using, who usually tend to have a much rosier view of American foreign policy than I do. And even if I were to specifically refrain from using the word 'massing', it doesn't change the substance of my argument.

Massing troops =/= massing aid, both in meaning and implication- this is a substantive difference, not merely semantics.

They are in fact massing both. The semantics argument was only whether or not I should have used the word "massing". What's not up for debate is whether or not Americans military forces are being sent to the Venezuelan border. They are.

[dead0man]

So you're, again, saying that the US military is massing military gear on their border?  Where is there evidence?

FYI, you are not very good at this.

[Big Abraham]

So you're, again, saying that the US military is massing military gear on their border?  Where is there evidence?

FYI, you are not very good at this.

The U.S. military increasing reconnaissance flights off the coast of Venezuela

Military personnel using C-17 planes to transport aid

None of this should really come off as a surprise though. The United States has a long history of unilateral military intervention in Latin America. We aren't quite there yet in Venezuela, but all the signs point in that direction

[dead0man]

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

[Big Abraham]

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

Nobody mentioned "gear" until you brought it up. What I said was military forces. Which is correct. See the articles above.

[Karpatsky]

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

Nobody mentioned "gear" until you brought it up. What I said was military forces. Which is correct. See the articles above.

The opposite would better support your argument. Using military hardware to transport non-military goods is gear but not forces, and I'm not sure reconnaissance flights can 'mass'.

[Big Abraham]

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

Nobody mentioned "gear" until you brought it up. What I said was military forces. Which is correct. See the articles above.

The opposite would better support your argument. Using military hardware to transport non-military goods is gear but not forces, and I'm not sure reconnaissance flights can 'mass'.

The use of the word "mass" was issued prior to the revelations about increased recon flights, which in fact occurred about 20 hours ago. Nevertheless, military aircraft is obviously a part of military forces, and it's obvious that the whole scenario of delivering American aid into Venezuela (as opposed to UN aid, for example) from neighbouring countries was intended as a pretext for military intervention. The government in Caracas has warned of such in advance, as had Russia. Vice President Pence has already said a full-scale invasion is "on the table", Trump himself has strongly hinted at such, and this "humanitarian aid" everyone loves to talk about so much is designed as a provocation to Maduro's government and orchestrated by the man who praised the atrocities committed by the military forces of the American-backed government in El Salvador.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Maduro refused UN aid months ago because the UN refused to let him distribute it and claim credit / keep people opposed to him from getting aid.

[Karpatsky]

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

Nobody mentioned "gear" until you brought it up. What I said was military forces. Which is correct. See the articles above.

The opposite would better support your argument. Using military hardware to transport non-military goods is gear but not forces, and I'm not sure reconnaissance flights can 'mass'.

The use of the word "mass" was issued prior to the revelations about increased recon flights, which in fact occurred about 20 hours ago. Nevertheless, military aircraft is obviously a part of military forces, and it's obvious that the whole scenario of delivering American aid into Venezuela (as opposed to UN aid, for example) from neighbouring countries was intended as a pretext for military intervention. The government in Caracas has warned of such in advance, as had Russia. Vice President Pence has already said a full-scale invasion is "on the table", Trump himself has strongly hinted at such, and this "humanitarian aid" everyone loves to talk about so much is designed as a provocation to Maduro's government and orchestrated by the man who praised the atrocities committed by the military forces of the American-backed government in El Salvador.

Whether you believe it is the intention of the US to invade Venezuela or not does not change the reality of what concentration of military force there currently is or is not near Venezuela.

[Big Abraham]

Maduro refused UN aid months ago because the UN refused to let him distribute it and claim credit / keep people opposed to him from getting aid.

He's always been opposed to receiving aid, which is why the introduction of American aid at the border is not a mere humanitarian effort by the United States government, but a provocation.

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

Nobody mentioned "gear" until you brought it up. What I said was military forces. Which is correct. See the articles above.

The opposite would better support your argument. Using military hardware to transport non-military goods is gear but not forces, and I'm not sure reconnaissance flights can 'mass'.

The use of the word "mass" was issued prior to the revelations about increased recon flights, which in fact occurred about 20 hours ago. Nevertheless, military aircraft is obviously a part of military forces, and it's obvious that the whole scenario of delivering American aid into Venezuela (as opposed to UN aid, for example) from neighbouring countries was intended as a pretext for military intervention. The government in Caracas has warned of such in advance, as had Russia. Vice President Pence has already said a full-scale invasion is "on the table", Trump himself has strongly hinted at such, and this "humanitarian aid" everyone loves to talk about so much is designed as a provocation to Maduro's government and orchestrated by the man who praised the atrocities committed by the military forces of the American-backed government in El Salvador.

Whether you believe it is the intention of the US to invade Venezuela or not does not change the reality of what concentration of military force there currently is or is not near Venezuela.

Well, several sources listed earlier in this thread that I have cited are adamant that military forces in the form of aircraft have concentrated at the border to introduce foodstuffs and other goods into Venezuela. What exactly do you disagree with?

[dead0man]

Neither of those says the US is massing military gear.

Nobody mentioned "gear" until you brought it up. What I said was military forces. Which is correct. See the articles above.

transportation planes carrying aid are not "forces", neither are recon planes


but this silly semantics BS has gone on long enough.  Let me know if, ya know, actual US "forces" "mass" at the border.....and I'd know before you would anyway, so, don't worry about it.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Nah. He’ll get Mugabe’d.

[Blue3]

Hundreds of soldiers are deserting:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/attacked-powerless-venezuela-soldiers-choose-050045429.html

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Which is at best a tenth of a percent of the Venezuelan military which isn't that impressive considering that these appear to be low-level conscripts.

[UWS]

Btw, if a civil war occurs in Venezuela and/or if the United States launch a military intervention there, I could imagine Brazil also intervening militarily in favor of regime change there. After all, the relations between Brazil and Venezuela are not good, Brazil is the largest country in Latin America, they have a
big economy and they are the 14th military power in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Venezuela#Americas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jair_Bolsonaro#Presidency

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jair_Bolsonaro#Foreign_policy

https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=brazil

[Farmlands]

Maduro refused UN aid months ago because the UN refused to let him distribute it and claim credit / keep people opposed to him from getting aid.

He's always been opposed to receiving aid, which is why the introduction of American aid at the border is not a mere humanitarian effort by the United States government, but a provocation.

The people in the streets of Venezuela need the aid, if Maduro is rejecting it, that's him being his usual self-serving self, but don't try to claim that bringing essential necessities to a desperate populace is somehow a bad thing, if its dictator refuses it.