Blair loses vote on Terror legislation

[afleitch]

I support 60 days. 90 days only with a court extension.

Pretty reasonable, but, as you can gather, not my prefered option. You're out of sync with your party's MPs though. I don't know what the mood is among the Tory rank and file

Dave

The Tories are playing a game I'd rather they wouldn't. But the party seems eerily united on this one, including the 'two Davids'

[afleitch]

The current 14 day limit is an insult really.

[Peter]

Well, as is expected, I'm the civil libertarian here.

I am very happy with the news that 90 days was defeated: I was undecided between staying at 14 and moving to 28 days, ao I'm reasonably happy with that too.

Ultimately, if the government does not have the evidence to charge somebody with a crime, then it shouldn't be holding them in a manner similar to internment. This doesn't prejudice the government from actually keeping somebody under strict surveillance after release if they do fear an attack.

[Democratic Hawk]

Well, as is expected, I'm the civil libertarian here.

And me the populist-realist

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Now then... it'd be nice if we could have a list of rebels (Labour and Tory; if any) on both votes...

I'm sure The Sun will name and shame them. I might even buy it

Dave

[Peter]

www.publicwhip.org.uk lists how every MP votes on every division, I have no idea how quickly they will have it updated, but they do have Monday's divisions up now, so it will probably be tomorrow when they have it up.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Out of interest, how would you have all voted:

On the 90 day limit

On the 28 day limit

[Angel of Death]

I am f**ing livid

90 days? The bastards should be held indefinately. Bloody lefty Labour fruits aligning themselves with the feckless Tories and Lib Dims/Dums (whatever?) 28 days is not good enough

Had certain 'Lefties' toed the party line then this would have been the perfect occasion to beat the Tories about their bleeding heads with. How the hell do they expect me to do that, when some of them useless buggers can't even get their own bloody arses into to gear

Civil liberties? What about the rights and liberties of those who died on july 7 or do they not matter? There is a fine line between civil liberties and taking liberties, which is what terrorists do and worse. If the bastards didn't do what they do, then there would be no need for additional security. It's as simple as that

And before any airy-fairy, namby-pamby politically-correctee starts having a go by quoting Benjamin Franklin at me, with due respect to the great man but he never had Islamic militants, who threaten the very fabric of civilised society, to contend with

National security is the first duty of the Prime Minister and I'm disgusted at Blair's enemies (left, right and wherever the Dums and Dims sit) for playing politics with public safety

Dave

P.S. God help my MP if they didn't vote the right way

Jean Charles de Menezes, never forget [1].

[1] Used without permission from the Holocaust Industry

[afleitch]

Out of interest, how would you have all voted:

On the 90 day limit

On the 28 day limit

90 DAY LIMIT- Abstain
28 DAY LIMIT- For

[Michael Z]

Looks like Blair picked one fight too many with his own party. As for the 90 day limit, it was patently excessive in my view, especially coming from a government which can't be trusted to implement these laws responsibly (IMO).

[Јas]

On the 90 day limit:
Against. That's far, far, far too long to hold someone without evidence. Unconscienable.

On the 28 day limit:
Against. I also believe this is too long. 14 days is long enough as it is to be held captive without court approval. If enough evidence cannot be compiled within two weeks to justify extended detention, then I do not believe that the state should have the right to continue holding someone.

[Emsworth]

Imprisoning someone for three months, on bare suspicion alone and without a trial, is absolutely atrocious and oppressive. I am glad that the measure was defeated.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How (as a legal matter) do you conclude that someone is a terrorist, and therefore does not deserve civil liberties? Should individuals (who are presumed innocent until proven guilty) be entitled to a proper trial in accordance with the law, or should they be imprisoned at the whim and caprice of a government official?

[Angel of Death]

Imprisoning someone for three months, on bare suspicion alone and without a trial, is absolutely atrocious and oppressive. I am glad that the measure was defeated.

Odd how a bunch of red avatars here disagree with this simple notion.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Looks like Blair picked one fight too many with his own party.

Not at all; most Labour M.P's voted for the 90 day limit.
I'm not really sure why he went ahead with the vote though; methinks it must have been obvioust to the Whips that it would lose. Electoral calculations perhaps?

[minionofmidas]

90 day - AGAINST. Duh.
28 day - depends. What party was I sitting for again? How important is another fight to me. Voting my conscience? AGAINST. And AGAINST keeping it at 14 days.

Demo - this is without charge. If you have any legally obtained evidence against somebody whatsoever, you will be able to charge them, even if they might get aquitted (not to mention be innocent) after all. If you can't, as a police force with their might, then you really have no reason to arrest them in the first place. There are exceptional circumstances where more than the standard (depends on country) 24 or 48 or 72 hours may be necessary. But 14 days is very long, and 90 days is grotesque (forget about Gitmo - no terrorist ever saw the inside of Gitmo or my real name is Lewis Trondheim.) There are no realist arguments for this extension - the public support is a knee-jerk reaction.

In full: The Labour terror rebels  
Here is the full list of the 49 Labour MPs who rebelled against the government in the Commons vote on allowing police to detain terror suspects without charge for up to 90 days. (No word on any Tory and LD rebels.)

Diane Abbott (Hackney North & Stoke Newington)
John Austin (Erith & Thamesmead)
Richard Burden (Birmingham Northfield)
Michael Clapham (Barnsley West & Penistone)
Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran)
Harry Cohen (Leyton & Wanstead)
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North)
Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
Ann Cryer (Keighley)
Frank Dobson (Holborn & St Pancras)
Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe & Nantwich)
Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent Central)
Paul Flynn (Newport West)
Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow)
Ian Gibson (Norwich North)
Roger Godsiff (Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath)
John Grogan (Selby)
David Hamilton (Midlothian)
Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North)
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead & Highgate)
Sian James (Swansea East)
Lynne Jones (Birmingham Selly Oak)
Sadiq Khan (Tooting)
Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool Walton)
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North & Leith)
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central)
Andy Love (Edmonton)
Christine McCafferty (Calder Valley)
John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington)
Bob Marshall-Andrews (Medway)
Michael Meacher (Oldham West & Royton)
Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)
George Mudie (Leeds East)
Chris Mullin (Sunderland South)
Gordon Prentice (Pendle)
Nick Raynsford (Greenwich & Woolwich)
Linda Riordan (Halifax)
Clare Short (Birmingham Ladywood)
Alan Simpson (Nottingham South)
Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South)
David Taylor (Leicestershire North West)
Emily Thornberry (Islington South & Finsbury)
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth)
Bob Wareing (Liverpool West Derby)
David Winnick (Walsall North)
Mike Wood (Batley & Spen)

[Democratic Hawk]

Imprisoning someone for three months, on bare suspicion alone and without a trial, is absolutely atrocious and oppressive. I am glad that the measure was defeated.

Odd how a bunch of red avatars here disagree with this simple notion.

Why? Just because I'm not a soft touch when it comes to national security, is no reason why I shouldn't have a red avatar

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Thankfully, my MP isn't guilty of colluding with the feckless opposition

Dave

[afleitch]

Only one Scottish MP dissenter. And it looks like Mohammed Sarwar backed the governemnt on this one.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Thanks for the list Lewis. Nothing especially suprising but one name stands out here:

Nick Raynsford

[minionofmidas]

Hey, Afleitch:

Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran)
David Hamilton (Midlothian)
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North & Leith)

Which part about "Scottish" do you not understand?

[Bono]

Here in portugal is two years.

[minionofmidas]

Here in portugal is two years.

Without charge? I don't believe that's correct.

[Peter]

Emily Thornberry (Islington South & Finsbury)

Good to see the friend of the family is voting the right way.

[Bono]

Here in portugal is two years.

Without charge? I don't believe that's correct.

Well, actually you may be right. I was thinking w/o trial.

[afleitch]

Hey, Afleitch:

Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran)
David Hamilton (Midlothian)
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North & Leith)

Which part about "Scottish" do you not understand?

Sorry, my mistake, I misread.