Fiat Money and the Coinage Clause
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  Fiat Money and the Coinage Clause
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Question: May Congress issue fiat money under the Coinage Clause?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
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Total Voters: 7

Author Topic: Fiat Money and the Coinage Clause  (Read 3885 times)
A18
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« on: November 07, 2005, 10:27:07 PM »

Article I, Section 8, Clause 5
The Congress shall have Power ... To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin...
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Richard
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 10:31:10 PM »

No, and they don't.
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A18
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2005, 01:23:30 PM »

No. The clause authorizes the coining of money from precious metals, such as gold and silver.  The founding generation distinguished between the power to "coin" specie money and the issuance of "bills of credit." The value of coined money was "inherent" in the metal from which the coin was made. The value of a bill of credit was based entirely on the good name of the United States.

At the Constitutional Convention, a proposal to give Congress the power to "emit bills on the credit of the United States" was defeated as too prone to abuse. It seems to have been understood by both supporters and opponents of the proposal that, absent the specific grant, paper money would be unconstitutional.

This sheds some light on the original understanding of the words "to coin money." And the framers were, after all, generally hostile to paper money.
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Richard
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2005, 01:40:03 PM »

The US government does not deal with the greenback.  They do not print money.  They only coin money.
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Bono
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 01:56:29 PM »

The US government does not deal with the greenback.  They do not print money.  They only coin money.

Irrelevant, since the federal reserve only has power as given by congress.
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ag
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 02:11:53 PM »

The US government does not deal with the greenback.  They do not print money.  They only coin money.

Irrelevant, since the federal reserve only has power as given by congress.

At the time of the founders banks were allowed to issue fiat money. Of course, the Congress can regulate the issue of fiat money by banks through the interstate commerce clause (if that is not integral to interstate comerce, than what is?).  It chose to restrict such issue to the Federal Reserve banks. The regional Feds are private institutions, owned by member banks, not parts of the government.  So, what's wrong?

What happened is that the "coinage monopoly", once considered a key prerogative of a sovereign government has become meaningless due to the disappearance of the species money.  That's all.
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Richard
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 02:17:28 PM »
« Edited: November 08, 2005, 02:20:52 PM by Richard R. »

The US government does not deal with the greenback.  They do not print money.  They only coin money.

Irrelevant, since the federal reserve only has power as given by congress.
Which is wrong, since the Federal Reserve isn't even part of the US government.
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A18
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 02:21:18 PM »

The Congress also rejected a proposal that would have allowed Congress to establish a national bank.

Interstate commerce is the exchange of merchandise across state lines. In other words, it is trade and navigation--it is shipping.
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Richard
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 02:23:01 PM »

The Federal Reserve is a disaster.  It should be abolished ASAFP.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 02:31:05 PM »

There is a distinction between the coining of money and the emission of bills of credit. Coin derives its value from the metal of which it is made, but a bill of credit it derives its value entirely from faith in the government of the United States. The fact that the Framers distinguished between coin and bills of credit is quite clear from the text alone. Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 provides, "No State shall ... coin Money [or] emit Bills of Credit."

Fiat money, or paper money, is an example of a bill of credit. The clause quoted in the preceding paragraph originally prohibited states from coining money, but not from emitting bills of credit. However, Roger Sherman made a motion to prevent the states from emitting bills of credit as well. Sherman remarked that the moment was opportune "for crushing paper money." Nathaniel Ghorum opposed the motion because "an absolute prohibition of paper money would rouse the most desperate opposition from its partizans." It is clear from these statements (as well as several others) that the Framers considered paper money a type of bill of credit, as distinguished from coin.

The Constitution explicitly forbids the states to emit bills of credit. It does not prohibit Congress from emitting such bills, but it does not authorize Congress to do so either.

In fact, the original draft of the Constitution included the power to emit bills of credit. According to James Madison's Notes, John Langdon would "rather reject the whole plan [of the Constitution] than retain the three words ('and emit bills')." George Read thought that "the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations." It follows, therefore, that Congress does not have the power to emit bills of credit even by virtue of the necessary and proper clause.


In the absence of a general power to emit bills of credit, fiat money is unconstitutional. As Daniel Webster once said, "As Congress has no power granted to it in this respect but to coin money and to regulate the value of foreign coins, it clearly has no power to substitute paper or anything else for coin as a [legal] tender."
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ag
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 05:16:05 PM »

There is a distinction between the coining of money and the emission of bills of credit. Coin derives its value from the metal of which it is made, but a bill of credit it derives its value entirely from faith in the government of the United States. The fact that the Framers distinguished between coin and bills of credit is quite clear from the text alone. Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 provides, "No State shall ... coin Money [or] emit Bills of Credit."

Fiat money, or paper money, is an example of a bill of credit. The clause quoted in the preceding paragraph originally prohibited states from coining money, but not from emitting bills of credit. However, Roger Sherman made a motion to prevent the states from emitting bills of credit as well. Sherman remarked that the moment was opportune "for crushing paper money." Nathaniel Ghorum opposed the motion because "an absolute prohibition of paper money would rouse the most desperate opposition from its partizans." It is clear from these statements (as well as several others) that the Framers considered paper money a type of bill of credit, as distinguished from coin.

The Constitution explicitly forbids the states to emit bills of credit. It does not prohibit Congress from emitting such bills, but it does not authorize Congress to do so either.

In fact, the original draft of the Constitution included the power to emit bills of credit. According to James Madison's Notes, John Langdon would "rather reject the whole plan [of the Constitution] than retain the three words ('and emit bills')." George Read thought that "the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations." It follows, therefore, that Congress does not have the power to emit bills of credit even by virtue of the necessary and proper clause.


In the absence of a general power to emit bills of credit, fiat money is unconstitutional. As Daniel Webster once said, "As Congress has no power granted to it in this respect but to coin money and to regulate the value of foreign coins, it clearly has no power to substitute paper or anything else for coin as a [legal] tender."

But Congress (or the US government for that matter) does not emit any bills of credit.  A bunch of private corporations (regional Feds) do.  Does the Constitution prohibit private corporations from issuing bills of credit? As long as the people have trust in that corporation, of course. So, the correct question is if the Congress can regulate the issuance of bills of credit by private banks.

In any case, this is just one example of how the meanings originally attached to terms change. As the development of modern economy has shown, it is not even true that the "value of species money" necessarily derives from the worth of the metal any more than the value of a piece of, toilet or Fed,  paper derives from the worth of that paper: once gold has been demonetized, much of its "value" disappeared. True, gold has non-monetary uses - it can be used for your wedding band. But so does paper: you can use it as wallpaper, or as fuel to heat your home. The "value" of anything comes from interaction of supply and demand, and if you remove the monetary demand, here goes the value. All you need for something to be "good money" is portability and reliable control over the supply.  If you could establish control over the supply of toilet paper, we might have used that as money. 

It is not unlikely, that the whole issue will become mute once over in the next 50-100 years with the practical disappearance of physical cash.  What is the constitutional view of control over the supply of something that really matters, say, M2?
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A18
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2005, 05:23:02 PM »

The answer is that it can not. Congress has power to regulate the shipping of merchandise across state lines for sale, not money. Furthermore, it can not declare bills of credit issued by private corporations to be legal tender.

All that's relevant here is the original understanding; not what that was based upon. In any event, money does get its value from the rarity of the commodity, and paper money is still backed only by the good name of the issuer. No one would accept a form of money if they thought a corporation was going to inflate it away.
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Bono
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2005, 05:34:29 PM »

So does this mean you finally changed your mind on commodity backed currency?
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A18
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2005, 05:38:10 PM »

No, it just means I can separate my personal views from the Constitution's.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2005, 05:39:29 PM »

So, the correct question is if the Congress can regulate the issuance of bills of credit by private banks.
There are two separate questions: May Congress regulate the issuance of bills of credit by private banks? May Congress make privately issued bills of credit legal tender?

In both cases, the answer must be in the negative.
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Bono
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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 05:40:25 PM »

No, it just means I can separate my personal views from the Constitution's.

*sigh* I was just wondering. And I also can, cince I think government issued currency is a terrible idea but still think it's cosntitutional.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2005, 05:41:57 PM »

*sigh* I was just wondering. And I also can, cince I think government issued currency is a terrible idea but still think it's cosntitutional.
Out of curiosity, which enumerated power do you rely on?
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A18
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« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2005, 05:43:35 PM »

He didn't say government-issued fiat money; just currency.
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Bono
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2005, 03:54:06 AM »

He didn't say government-issued fiat money; just currency.

Correct.
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