Crisis in Venezuela

[Sir Mohamed]

This a fairly good decision by Trump. A broken watch is right two times a day, too.

Maduro should resign and take the amnesty that has been offered to him to allow Venezuela to recover from its economic suffering and become a respected country again.

[Intell]

Ok guys, let's not go mental stupid here. Maduro is a dictator and Guadio is obviously better and I hope he replaces Maduro. In saying that, out of principle and pragmatism the US should not exert it's imperial influence in Venezuela (which will not be for the concern of human rights lol) and the US doing so will make the situation even worse in Venezuela resulting in an inevitable civil war.

[American2020]

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1088573769243914240

[Karpatsky]

I'm not even sure what people posting this even mean - are they arguing that it is preferable to avoid hypocrisy by supporting all dictatorships, including Maduro's, than to support some but not others, or what?

Preferably supporting no dictatorships would be sufficient.

So why complain when it moves one step towards that?

[ON Progressive]

Ok guys, let's not go mental stupid here. Maduro is a dictator and Guadio is obviously better and I hope he replaces Maduro. In saying that, out of principle and pragmatism the US should not exert it's imperial influence in Venezuela (which will not be for the concern of human rights lol) and the US doing so will make the situation even worse in Venezuela resulting in an inevitable civil war.

This is my position as well.

[JA]

U.S. Coups™: Overthrowing Latin American Governments since 1823

Except Maduro is no longer a democratically-elected leader, so even if it was a coup (which it is clearly not, especially with the military still backing Maduro), it would be different.

1,500 international observers would disagree with you.

Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. This coup attempt by an international, Right-wing, imperialistic alliance is inexcusable; they have no power to recognize an unelected, illegitimate leader of another country. Is Maduro corrupt? Hell yes. He’s also a frequent violator of numerous human and civil rights. No question about that. But, he’s far, far from being among the world’s worst, and yet America, Canada, etc... are perfectly fine not only tolerating, but partnering with considerably worse states, such as Saudi Arabia. The reason behind all of this is obvious: oil. Venezuela has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, yet they aren’t particularly friendly with the world’s imperialistic powers (headed by the US).

Thankfully, Venezuela’s armed forces have already expressed their alliance with Maduro’s legitimate government.

It’s funny how everyone on this forum loses their collective sh** over simply alleged Russian meddling in American elections, scream about the Fascism of Trump and Bolsonaro, then at the same time champion American-Brazilian partnership in an attempted coup. You’re all just massive bootlickers.

This post is so absurd that it reminds me of something TNF would say back in the day

Prove that all of what I said was wrong.

Maduro is not legitimate in any way . The election was clearly rigged so the fact is that the results are invalid and Guaido is the interim president until new elections can be held

Here’s the thing, I can either recognize the statements of 1,500 international observers who oversaw and investigated the Venezuelan election of May 2018 or I can go by the word of a random forum commentor and the totally unbiased claims of the US government and its allies. Decisions, decisions...

In addition, I’d love to know why the legitimacy of Venezuela’s president and the crisis of that country (which, in large, but not exclusive, part stems from American sanctions/embargos) is more important than, for example, the crisis of an undemocratically elected President slaughtering protestors in Sudan, the police state forced upon the Uighurs by the unelected Chinese government, or the unparalleled barbarism against its own people and assassination of an American citizen (along with his torture) by an ally of the US, Canada, etc... whose government has absolutely no claims to democratic legitimacy. Could you please tell me why Maduro’s Venezuela is an enemy deserving of such priority and threats of coups, while America remains allied with some of the worst tyrannical regimes and ignores the horrors of countless African and Asian states?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42304594

As stated in your own article, President Maduro didn’t directly ban any parties from participating. The National Constituent Assembly designed those limitations on participation in the election; not Maduro. The opposition doesn’t like the National Constituent Assembly, but it was voted upon by the Venezuelan people and holds no less legitimacy than any other elected body. They created the rules, so talk to the Assembly about that, not Maduro.

Yes, I'm sure Maduro was shocked--shocked I tell you!--that the opposition was denied the opportunity to run against him.

I never suggested that he was shocked. I’m also sure that he wasn’t the least bit upset by it either. I’m not here to claim that Venezuela is some shining example of democracy or that Maduro isn’t a habitual violator of civil rights and that his government is corrupt beyond belief. All of that’s true.

However...

1. 1,500 international observers reported that the May ‘18 elections were reasonably democratic.

2. Much, if not most, of the suffering being experienced by Venezuelans is attributable to the retaliatory economic measures designed to pressure the Maduro government into subordinating itself to the wishes of international capital (as reinforced by the American state). The sanctions and embargoes imposed upon Venezuela have helped to cripple and starve it, along with the concerted effort by private food producers and distributors who have a vested interest in applying pressure to the Maduro regime by starving the Venezuelan people. For example, theBank of England isn’t wanting to return the $1.2bn worth of gold Venezuela placed into it as part of a guarantee on a loan from Germany to purchase food from Turkey to feed its people being starved by sanctions. US/UK are deliberately blocking the ability for Venezuela to import food to feed its people, hoping that the hungry masses will rise up against Maduro.

3. While not every dictatorship or authoritarian regime should be tolerated, the Maduro government is hardly among the worst present in our world. America’s prioritization of Venezuela, beginning with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution (which has fallen apart under Maduro’s failed leadership), is rightfully suspicious considering Venezuela is far from unique, far from the worst existing today, that we have allies who’re considerably worse to their people, and, of course, that Venezuela just happens to possess the world’s largest proven oil reserves.

Its just not America though

So? Do you really think I’m aiming this solely at America?

The person who’s committing a coop is Maduro not Guaido . Besides your point on the international observers,that’s not a good point  as if the opposition is banned from participating it’s not an election
It’s rigged .

Maduro is the sole legitimate leader of Venezuela. Who else could be? The only person who won any kind of election was Maduro.

Maduro also didn’t prohibit any opposition from participating in the May ‘18 election. The National Constituent Assembly prohibited those parties that boycotted the election of the National Constituent Assembly. When they chose to boycott the NCA, the opposition forfeited representation in this constitutional body.

You have got to be kidding me a research paper is not a primary source. Also it clearly has a certain slant to it as the writer is looking to prove their theory. That paper makes numerous claims without proper citations. Opposition parties were disqualified from running which is why they ended up boycotting the election. He had some of thrown in jail as well.
https://www.lapatilla.com/2018/01/23/lideres-opositores-que-no-podran-ser-candidatos-en-proxima-eleccion-presidencial-de-venezuela/

Commies like him will never support US actions against Left Wing dictatorships no matter what unfortunately.


We once had a poster named TNF and he became so commie that he started to defend North Korea and their government and would blame the US and capitalism for everything . It seems like Jacobin is going down TNF’s route because TNF wasn’t always like that but he eventually went down that road and became one and I hope Jacobin doesn’t go further down that route

You fail to comprehend that I never expressed any form of significant support for Maduro’s government. As previously stated, he’s corrupt beyond belief, his government is contributing to (but is not the primary cause of) the existing shortages and food crisis, violates civil rights repeatedly, and he presides over a flawed democracy.

But, with that said, there has been unjustifiable sanctions and embargoes forced upon the Venezuelan state to punish it for its refusal to cooperate with international capital. The Venezuelan people are being starved by a concerted effort internally (disgruntled food distribution and producing corporations) and externally (sanctions and embargoes, such as what the Bank of England is now doing). America already tried to take out Chavez, who had legitimate claims to popularity in Venezuela and a more democratic electoral system; they want to force an end to the (already deeply flawed) Bolivarian Revolution.

There’s no excuse for foreign states to try stripping Maduro of legitimacy, interfering in Venezuela to support Maduro’s opposition, or for meddling in the country at all. Venezuela is none of America, Britain, Canada, or anyone else’s business; that’s the business of Venezuelans to sort out their situation. A very large segment of the Venezuelan population supports Maduro; stripping him of power, especially by force, will result in massive violence and a possible civil war that’ll spark a humanitarian and refugee crisis. That’s what Western Powers have been doing for centuries now all for the sake of Western capitalists’ interests. Nobody has the right to interfere, especially by force, in the domestic affairs of Venezuela. The debate over whether Maduro deserves to continue being President should be one left up to Venezuelans.

When I raise the point that America & Co. not only ignore or tolerate similar or worse governments, they’re actually allied with one of the worst states in the world, it isn’t some whataboutism; it’s the challenge why they’ve decided to target and prioritize a particular state. It isn’t about democracy, human rights, access to food, etc... Hell, America is aiding Saudi Arabia in its war on Yemen that has created the world’s worst humanitarian crisis with over 10,000,000 innocent people at risk of starvation from a manmade famine. Don’t you ever even dare claim America & Co. is doing this for human rights or democracy. Venezuela possesses the world’s largest known oil reserves; they want Maduro gone because they know the opposition will be their puppet and happily allow international corporations and investors to strip the country of its control over its natural resources.

[Cashew]

You fail to comprehend that I never expressed any form of significant support for Maduro’s government.

[Santander]

You fail to comprehend that I never expressed any form of significant support for Maduro’s government.

Other than saying you'd vote for him.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1088573769243914240

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1088573771395596293

[JA]

You fail to comprehend that I never expressed any form of significant support for Maduro’s government.

And? That signature says solidarity with Venezuela against a US backed coup. That’s my position, obviously.

[JA]

You fail to comprehend that I never expressed any form of significant support for Maduro’s government.

Other than saying you'd vote for him.

And also, in that same thread, specifying that I’d vote for him only because he’s the least worst option, not because he was some amazing candidate.

[Skye]

Hi. Understand that every day that Maduro controls Venezuela is another day of suffering for the average Venezuelan. Please, at least consider that before posting pictures in support of Maduro while in the comfort of your room. I won't argue anymore.

Thanks to those who have expressed support to us in these dark times.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

https://twitter.com/JewNd_A_HalfMen/status/1088594078865022977
https://twitter.com/JewNd_A_HalfMen/status/1088597775145680897

[JA]

Hi. Understand that every day that Maduro controls Venezuela is another day of suffering for the average Venezuelan. Please, at least consider that before posting pictures in support of Maduro while in the comfort of your room. I won't argue anymore.

Thanks to those who have expressed support to us in these dark times.

[Intell]

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1088573769243914240

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1088573771395596293

Sanders is correct as usual.

[DavidB.]

Hi. Understand that every day that Maduro controls Venezuela is another day of suffering for the average Venezuelan. Please, at least consider that before posting pictures in support of Maduro while in the comfort of your room. I won't argue anymore.

Thanks to those who have expressed support to us in these dark times.

Are you actually suggesting that people are not suffering in Venezuela?

[Stranger in a strange land]

Ok guys, let's not go mental stupid here. Maduro is a dictator and Guadio is obviously better and I hope he replaces Maduro. In saying that, out of principle and pragmatism the US should not exert it's imperial influence in Venezuela (which will not be for the concern of human rights lol) and the US doing so will make the situation even worse in Venezuela resulting in an inevitable civil war.

This is my position as well.

^^^^^

[JA]

Hi. Understand that every day that Maduro controls Venezuela is another day of suffering for the average Venezuelan. Please, at least consider that before posting pictures in support of Maduro while in the comfort of your room. I won't argue anymore.

Thanks to those who have expressed support to us in these dark times.

Are you actually suggesting that people are not suffering in Venezuela?

No, I’m not. What I’m suggesting is that a Venezuelan who speaks English online likely isn’t a very good representative of the average Venezuelan and how they view things. That’s all.

[PSOL]

JA, I have a relative that lived through persecution for being Baha’i after the show of a Revolution in 1979, only to have to live through this. From her own words, she blames Chavez and Maduro for the deteriorating situation. This isn’t the case of someone entitled or wealthy suffering, she sees the same air of despair in Venezuela that was present in Iran before she left.

On the supposed trustworthiness of English speaking Venezuelans, well I always say be thinking about who you’re talking to online, but in this case they are correct on the deteriorating situation from their vantage point. The truth is that everyone is suffering. Mind you, this is not to endorse a hard or soft intervention in Venezuela, I’ve already spoken on the matter as needing a pragmatic and cautious hand.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Imagine if after the new Democratic House was sworn in, the Supreme Court stepped in and basically said that they were the new legislative House body and the House could just be ignored. And they later backed down after massive public outcry and let the House take control again, but then the Senate went ahead and voted on some bills stripping the House of most of its powers and abilities to pass legislation (obviously after abolishing the filibuster) and bypassed the House and just sent said bills to Trump's desk to sign (which the Supreme Court says was OK.) And if the House ever did anything they didn't like would just pass another bill bypassing the House stripping it of its power. And then when Elizabeth Warren, Kirsten Gillibrand, Kamala Harris, etc. announced their campaigns, the Republicans in the Senate just went ahead and disqualified them as candidates. And as a result of that and any other remotely serious Democratic candidate being disqualified Trump's 2020 opponent ended up being that perennial candidate who's in federal prison for mail fraud and got almost 40% of the vote in West Virginia in 2012.

If what the Maduro-created National Assembly did (and frankly the Republican Senate has MORE democratic legitimacy than it does) is OK and his "re-election" was democratically legitimate, then all of the above is perfectly OK as well, as would be Trump's re-election in 2020 under those conditions.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Imagine if after the new Democratic House was sworn in, the Supreme Court stepped in and basically said that they were the new legislative House body and the House could just be ignored. And they later backed down after massive public outcry and let the House take control again, but then the Senate went ahead and voted on some bills stripping the House of most of its powers and abilities to pass legislation (obviously after abolishing the filibuster) and bypassed the House and just sent said bills to Trump's desk to sign (which the Supreme Court says was OK.) And if the House ever did anything they didn't like would just pass another bill bypassing the House stripping it of its power. And then when Elizabeth Warren, Kirsten Gillibrand, Kamala Harris, etc. announced their campaigns, the Republicans in the Senate just went ahead and disqualified them as candidates. And as a result of that and any other remotely serious Democratic candidate being disqualified Trump's 2020 opponent ended up being that perennial candidate who's in federal prison for mail fraud and got almost 40% of the vote in West Virginia in 2012.

If what the Maduro-created National Assembly did (and frankly the Republican Senate has MORE democratic legitimacy than it does) is OK and his "re-election" was democratically legitimate, then all of the above is perfectly OK as well, as would be Trump's re-election in 2020 under those conditions.

But Comrade Maduro is woke On The Issues, you see.

[Senator Incitatus]

This is more like the Thermidorian Reaction than the coronation of Napoleon. Leftists should calm down.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This is more like the Thermidorian Reaction than the coronation of Napoleon. Leftists should calm down.

To hear some people (whom I've since unfollowed) on liberation theology Tumblr talk, it's the consecration of Joseph de Maistre as God-Emperor. Get a grip, people.

[Devout Centrist]

I don't think recognizing Guaido is the best move. Surely Maduro is utter scum, but I worry that destabilizing the country could result in complete collapse or worse, civil war. Now's the time to coax Maduro into talking with the opposition and making moves towards de-escalation. I don't think this move helps that goal.

[Senator Incitatus]

This is more like the Thermidorian Reaction than the coronation of Napoleon. Leftists should calm down.

To hear some people (whom I've since unfollowed) on liberation theology Tumblr talk, it's the consecration of Joseph de Maistre as God-Emperor. Get a grip, people.

Hell yeah; rev up that Counter-Enlightenment.