Elizabeth Warren 2020 campaign megathread

[John Dule]

My point is that if she calls out Biden for his record, he could just say, "well at least I was a Democrat." She needs to preempt that by owning up to it.

Dawg she was a private citizen then. She reevaluated and changed course. There's nothing really to apologize for.

Yes absolutely. But if you voted for Ronald Reagan she should absolutely be disqualified in the mids of Dems voters.

Reagan was 100 times worse than Trump & he is the reason why there is someone like Trump today.

No. I can 100% guarantee that your obsession with Warren being a Republican until the 1990s is a way of rationalizing your support for Bernie.

It functionally has absolutely zero effect on how she would govern. You're looking for reasons to not vote for her because you're threatened by her.

This is precisely shy Bernie won't be the nominee too--through no fault of his own, but rather through the puritanism of his supporters.

Being disproportionately white, I would be willing to bet that most of them were raised in conservative or at least liberal homes, and came to Leftism only by virtue of our higher education system like I did. Even then, sometimes the ideology takes years to incubate. Unlearning your ideological conditioning (and by the way, the way that some of his male supporters haven't really unlearnt racism or sexism) takes time. Warren should be commended for overcoming her upbringing, just like most of them did, but instead they use it as a weapon against her.

If they want to criticize her taking big $ in past campaigns, fair. Policy differences, sure. Waiting to endorse Medicare for all, yes. Not endorsing Bernie, I am here for that. But the "she was a Repub" argument is so weak when many of them were too.

This is precisely what I've been saying about Tulsi Gabbard's upbringing for months, though that seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

[jacobmeteorite]

 OK, so I know this makes me look like a total dork, but I just found out that I am in Elizabeth’s newest campaign video ad, and I am FLOORED! I love her so much, and I feel like my fellow political geeks would understand lmao

[Karpatsky]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

[Saint Milei]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

[Progressive Pessimist]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

[John Dule]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

[Beet]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

Otoh, all economics majors know that the free market maximizes marginal utility.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

I won't deny that. But it's not like those beliefs aren't informed by their education in turn. That's just what happens when one is better educated, they tend to become more left wing. The more you learn about the world, the more you want to address its problems.

[izixs]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

I won't deny that. But it's not like those beliefs aren't informed by their education in turn. That's just what happens when one is better educated, they tend to become more left wing. The more you learn about the world, the more you want to address its problems.

Yes, the want to address them and have the tools necessary to understand those problems enough to offer up solutions. There's a long running humorous saying that goes like this: reality has a liberal bias. It is often brought up when, in order to support conservative talking points or policy, conservatives invent data and stories to show that sure all their nonsense would totally worked... if they didn't have to contend with reality mucking up their plans.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

Perhaps if the American conservative movement hadn't waged all out war on American higher-ed (up to, and including, ridiculous hand wringing about "free speech on campus") there would be more conservatives in the academy?

Also: as someone who has worked in a STEM department in a university, the majority of college coursework is apolitical. Good luck finding "indoctrination" in a course about plate tectonics, probability theory, or Charles Dickens.

[John Dule]

Otoh, all economics majors know that the free market maximizes marginal utility.

Didn't AOC major in economics?

I won't deny that. But it's not like those beliefs aren't informed by their education in turn. That's just what happens when one is better educated, they tend to become more left wing. The more you learn about the world, the more you want to address its problems.

... Or it could be that the well-educated conservatives go into the private sector instead. Regardless, I find it pretty silly to claim that you have to be a liberal in order to address the world's problems. This is the part of political discourse that rubs me the wrong way; the implicit assumption that those on the right want nothing other than to preserve the status quo and that the left has a monopoly on empathy for the poor. For the record, there's actually no significant correlation between level of educational attainment and party membership.

Yes, the want to address them and have the tools necessary to understand those problems enough to offer up solutions. There's a long running humorous saying that goes like this: reality has a liberal bias. It is often brought up when, in order to support conservative talking points or policy, conservatives invent data and stories to show that sure all their nonsense would totally worked... if they didn't have to contend with reality mucking up their plans.

Keeping this conversation grounded in the subject of college education, I wouldn't say that political discourse in this nation's universities is all that connected to reality. I might be getting the worst sample size with my particular university, but a not-too-insignificant minority of students openly praise socialism and communism, while the vast majority support left-wing economic policies that have demonstrably failed (like rent control). Being in touch with reality means having the ability to admit that a policy doesn't work, and I think many universities fail to teach their students that valuable skill.

Perhaps if the American conservative movement hadn't waged all out war on American higher-ed (up to, and including, ridiculous hand wringing about "free speech on campus") there would be more conservatives in the academy?

Also: as someone who has worked in a STEM department in a university, the majority of college coursework is apolitical. Good luck finding "indoctrination" in a course about plate tectonics, probability theory, or Charles Dickens.

Yes, and thank God for the STEM majors of the world. But sadly, we're already beginning to see the breakdown of objective science in realms such as economics and biological gender. I hope I don't live to see the day when someone asserts that physics is a patriarchal construct.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Yes, and thank God for the STEM majors of the world. But sadly, we're already beginning to see the breakdown of objective science in realms such as economics and biological gender.

Isn't "biological gender" just sex? As somebody who works with a lot of developmental/organismal biologists I don't really know what you mean.

I hope I don't live to see the day when someone asserts that physics is a patriarchal construct.

My friend once found an essay that claimed i was chosen to represent the imaginary number because it was phallic. These theories exist but are treated as incredibly fringe and almost entirely unknown.

[izixs]

Yes, and thank God for the STEM majors of the world. But sadly, we're already beginning to see the breakdown of objective science in realms such as economics and biological gender.

Isn't "biological gender" just sex? As somebody who works with a lot of developmental/organismal biologists I don't really know what you mean.

He's trying to yuk about transgender issues with that one, conflating the on going social evolution on the subject of gender (the question of what is it being defined as presently in society and are people being served by this social definition well) with the biological mechanics of reproduction (aka, all that business about cells). The implied assumption he seems to be using is that only the mechanical end of things should matter and the larger discussion related to anything else is 'indoctrination' or some nonsense. Like seeking to understand how society works with regards to something that even that society gets wrong is a terrible thing, or something.

I hope I don't live to see the day when someone asserts that physics is a patriarchal construct.

My friend once found an essay that claimed i was chosen to represent the imaginary number because it was phallic. These theories exist but are treated as incredibly fringe and almost entirely unknown.

Never heard that one. Sounds like bs to me. Especially when there's always letters like J, P, and q to fall back on for such imagery. :-p

No group of people of significant number is totally immune to the occasional malicious assertion like that. Some fraction will buy into it and repeat it, much to the annoyance of the fraction who sees it for what it is. The trick is to encourage behaviors and critical thinking skills that make the group resistant to such things, or at the very least, encourage those who do fall for it to not spread it. And so I always encourage people to be skeptical of such assertions.

Meanwhile... the Republicans elected a birther.

Though all this does remind me of a friend of mine of a more libertarian bent who was complaining about something involving a New York law that supposedly, according to him, all about the policing of gender. Which to wrap back to the also mentioned rent control stuff, was actually kind of linked to that stuff as the rule was put in place to discourage harassment by hostile landlords who want to kick people out of rent controlled apartments but can't.

So I find it interesting how all of this seems to link together so easily. And tis also telling, during conversations like this, what gets left out. What assumptions are left unsaid, important details of the mechanics at play are ignored or not investigated. As was the case with the misgendering law discussion with my friend and the claims of the break down of objectivity in education. And yet... when ever I bring up this sort of thing folks don't really try to fill in the details to get everybody properly up to speed.

[John Dule]

Yes, and thank God for the STEM majors of the world. But sadly, we're already beginning to see the breakdown of objective science in realms such as economics and biological gender.

Isn't "biological gender" just sex? As somebody who works with a lot of developmental/organismal biologists I don't really know what you mean.

Well, right here you've stated that there is an actual connection between gender and sex, which is more ground than some people are willing to give. There's really no working, universal system for the terms that "gender-as-a-social-construct" people want others to use, so any attempt to use the proper terminology will be met with vitriol from one person or another.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Yes, and thank God for the STEM majors of the world. But sadly, we're already beginning to see the breakdown of objective science in realms such as economics and biological gender.

Isn't "biological gender" just sex? As somebody who works with a lot of developmental/organismal biologists I don't really know what you mean.

Well, right here you've stated that there is an actual connection between gender and sex, which is more ground than some people are willing to give.

I don't know who these "some people" are. Not treating the two as identical doesn't mean you deny there is a connection between the two.

And for the record there are examples of sex in other living systems that break from the human, cis-normative paradigm. Take a look at plants. There are also plenty of interesting examples in insects and, if I am remembering correctly, even reptiles. Treating "biological sex" in the sense of man-and-woman is a good heuristic but it's not universally applicable.

There's really no working, universal system for the terms that "gender-as-a-social-construct" people want others to use, so any attempt to use the proper terminology will be met with vitriol from one person or another.

Bolded part is also untrue. People who obviously make good faith efforts but transgress are usually treated with kindness. People who trivialize, demean, and purposefully use terms that are not preferred are not.

And either way by conflating biological sex and gender identity you're moving outside the realm of STEM and into something different. STEM is concerned with gender identity inasmuch as they are concerned with making people of any gender identity feel welcome to participate in and contribute to the field, but not much else.

[Saint Milei]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

I won't deny that. But it's not like those beliefs aren't informed by their education in turn. That's just what happens when one is better educated, they tend to become more left wing. The more you learn about the world, the more you want to address its problems.

This is a sad argument and a reason why liberal indoctrination exists

[Saint Milei]

Also, lol @ the notion that college is somehow an anti-indoctrination system.

It absolutely is if done properly, and for many top-tier colleges remains so. The problem is that standards of liberal education in America have slipped now that costs are so high and college is being sold as an 'experience' rather than an education - like any business, modern colleges which challenge students to think as they should tend to do poorly compared to those willing to cater to preexisting notions.

A shame that college is now just a way for liberals to indoctrinate students

It isn't and never has been. It's just seen that way since education about society is anathema to conservative dominion.

The overwhelming majority of college professors are leftists, and it'll be hard for you to keep a straight face while arguing that they don't let their beliefs bleed into their teaching.

Perhaps if the American conservative movement hadn't waged all out war on American higher-ed (up to, and including, ridiculous hand wringing about "free speech on campus") there would be more conservatives in the academy?

Also: as someone who has worked in a STEM department in a university, the majority of college coursework is apolitical. Good luck finding "indoctrination" in a course about plate tectonics, probability theory, or Charles Dickens.

Because stem is such a subjective branch of education...the crap yall tell yourselves is insane

[Wiz in Wis]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

[Progressive Pessimist]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

Thank you! I'm overwhelmed with responses from something that I didn't think warranted it.

[GP270watch]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

She just got a great new poll result showing her in second place and close to 20%.

NBC/WSJ poll: Biden, Warren top 2020 Democratic field\

Biden - 26%
Warren - 19%
Harris - 13%
Sanders - 13%

[John Dule]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

Thank you! I'm overwhelmed with responses from something that I didn't think warranted it.

You said that better-educated people are generally more left-wing. I wanted to clarify that there's no evidence to back that up. One's degree of political involvement does increase the more education they have, but they don't sort disproportionately towards the Democratic Party.

[Ilhan Apologist]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

Thank you! I'm overwhelmed with responses from something that I didn't think warranted it.

You said that better-educated people are generally more left-wing. I wanted to clarify that there's no evidence to back that up. One's degree of political involvement does increase the more education they have, but they don't sort disproportionately towards the Democratic Party.

But...data literally shows that college-educated voters tend to be more Democratic...

[John Dule]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

Thank you! I'm overwhelmed with responses from something that I didn't think warranted it.

You said that better-educated people are generally more left-wing. I wanted to clarify that there's no evidence to back that up. One's degree of political involvement does increase the more education they have, but they don't sort disproportionately towards the Democratic Party.

But...data literally shows that college-educated voters tend to be more Democratic...

The divide you're referring to emerged only in 2016. I was surprised about this too, but up until 2015 the parties were basically neck-and-neck among people with high school degrees and college degrees. Republicans actually used to have an edge among the college-educated. So the claim that "education is anathema to conservative values" is pretty dubious in my opinion.

[Mr. Smith]

Can we make this about Elizabeth Warren's campaign again and take the pissing and moaning about college to general discussion?

Thank you! I'm overwhelmed with responses from something that I didn't think warranted it.

You said that better-educated people are generally more left-wing. I wanted to clarify that there's no evidence to back that up. One's degree of political involvement does increase the more education they have, but they don't sort disproportionately towards the Democratic Party.

But...data literally shows that college-educated voters tend to be more Democratic...

The divide you're referring to emerged only in 2016. I was surprised about this too, but up until 2015 the parties were basically neck-and-neck among people with high school degrees and college degrees. Republicans actually used to have an edge among the college-educated. So the claim that "education is anathema to conservative values" is pretty dubious in my opinion.

Not that dubious, the trend was building for awhile. I mean, even William Buckley himself had to point out where things were going.

[CookieDamage]

I've literally had only 1 leftist professor in my entire University career. Voting Democrat and having a left-of-center worldview doesn't make one a leftist, it makes them center-left, liberal, progressive, etc. But then again y'all ~libertarians~ and blue avatars think anyone who isn't a Republican is a leftist.

If you guys don't like how higher education is dominated by centrists, liberals, and leftism, maybe not make conservatism and rightism so reactionary and anti-intellectual.