AOC: White House "starving out" Puerto Rico

[Old Man Willow]

https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1078848803158003712

[JA]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

[Dr. Arch]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

[YE]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

[Peanut]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

That drastically oversimplifies the situation. The "status quo" is not supported by a majority of Puerto Ricans, and statehood is, as far as I understand, supported by a majority of the population in Puerto Rico. Whether they are indecisive should not be the concern of the government at this point, they are still an American territory with American citizens and the situation in which they live HAS to be a concern of the government. "Couldn't even be bothered to turn out" is frankly a misunderstanding of the unique circumstances that Puerto Rico has as an actual leftover of colonial days. I fully agree with Jacobin on this issue.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

That drastically oversimplifies the situation. The "status quo" is not supported by a majority of Puerto Ricans, and statehood is, as far as I understand, supported by a majority of the population in Puerto Rico. Whether they are indecisive should not be the concern of the government at this point, they are still an American territory with American citizens and the situation in which they live HAS to be a concern of the government. "Couldn't even be bothered to turn out" is frankly a misunderstanding of the unique circumstances that Puerto Rico has as an actual leftover of colonial days. I fully agree with Jacobin on this issue.

Of course I'm in favor of more being done to insist Puerto Rico is given a better response to the devastation it faced from Hurricane Maria; however had more Puerto Ricans, say a clear and convincing majority, turned out in favor of Statehood neither party would have been able to deny the groundswell of support that would've most likely developed. No, instead for petty reasons they decided to delegitimize the only means by which Puerto Rico can obtain statehood. And perhaps it's Puerto Rico's incompetent leadership who I primarily blame for this result, - not even most Puerto Ricans themselves, though just like Americans they also share the blame for not being socially or politically engaged enough.

[7,052,770]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

I mean, there just can't be an idea that you can boycott an election and the results don't count. Imagine if Trump were losing big in 2020, told his supporters to boycott the election, and then claimed his landslide loss didn't count.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

I mean, there just can't be an idea that you can boycott an election and the results don't count. Imagine if Trump were losing big in 2020, told his supporters to boycott the election, and then claimed his landslide loss didn't count.

Those are fundamentally different scenarios.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Puerto Rico is facing a catastrophic population collapse.  I suggested it could happen years ago and certain posters scoffed and mocked me...but now it’s happening.

Emigration among young people has reduced fertility and births have been falling for 40 years now, from 75,000 in 1978 to 60,000 in 2000, 42,000 in 2010, when collapse really accelerated to just 20,000 in 2018.  The TFR is currently 1 child per woman.  That means each successive generation is half the size of the previous generation.

The number of deaths has exceeded births for the last two years and will continue to rise as older generations, who are less likely to leave, remain and the young are driven out at increasing rates due to no new jobs being created (the older people have jobs and when they retire or die, that job is retired too, leaving nothing for the young).

One demographer predicted a possible collapse to 1.8 million people before things stabilize.  This will have been unprecedented since the Irish potato famine. 

Things are easily headed toward 2.5 million...which will cause massive, immediate restructuring ofmthe PR economy. 

[Dr. Arch]

Puerto Rico is facing a catastrophic population collapse.  I suggested it could happen years ago and certain posters scoffed and mocked me...but now it’s happening.

Emigration among young people has reduced fertility and births have been falling for 40 years now, from 75,000 in 1978 to 60,000 in 2000, 42,000 in 2010, when collapse really accelerated to just 20,000 in 2018.  The TFR is currently 1 child per woman.  That means each successive generation is half the size of the previous generation.

The number of deaths has exceeded births for the last two years and will continue to rise as older generations, who are less likely to leave, remain and the young are driven out at increasing rates due to no new jobs being created (the older people have jobs and when they retire or die, that job is retired too, leaving nothing for the young).

One demographer predicted a possible collapse to 1.8 million people before things stabilize.  This will have been unprecedented since the Irish potato famine. 

Things are easily headed toward 2.5 million...which will cause massive, immediate restructuring ofmthe PR economy. 

Not that Puerto Ricans have any control over that thanks to the Fiscal Committee instituted by Congress and Obama.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The bondbuyer's people cite an oversight board heaping hope on the census bureau estimates showing the population decline from 2017 to 2018 wasn't as bad as expected.

My first question is:  How on earth could the census bureau, with its past lack of accuracy in population estimates between censuses, possibly say with any certainty what the 2018 population of Puerto Rico is?

Also, why would one assume that PR's population decline wont accelerate dramatically as the island settles after Maria and people who couldn't leave because they literally couldn't and begin to finally take account of the situation and book a ticket out of San Juan?

What should be indicative is the birth rate. 9815 births in the first half of 2018 compared to 12,022 in the first half of 2017.

Births from January-mid-May would have been conceived prior to Maria, so most of the decline is from the already collapsing birth rate and pregnant women leaving the island and giving birth elsewhere.

It is possible that births were under 20,000 in 2018, down from 31,000 in 2015 and actually the TFR would then likely be below 1 child.

This kind of collapse has only occurred in a handful of incidents.  Cities like Hong Kong and Singapore have had TFRs that low in some years as huge flows of young women poured into the city from abroad but were not established enough to have kids yet.  The TFRs recovered somewhat when those women began having children.

The nations of Eastern Europe, the Baltics in particular, and the former GDR states are perhaps the best comparison.  In the aftermath of reunification, east German women simply stopped having kids for about 5 years in what has been dubbed "the Kink" because of its appearance on population pyramids.  TFR reached nearly unprecedented in human history levels as low as 0.7 children per woman in 1994.

East Germany also had a history of emigration and moderate fertility (it was significantly higher than West Germany prior to reunification).

But East Germany has had massive investment by the west.  Even still, thousands and thousands of homes are abandoned and massive blocs of apartments torn down and returned to grass each year across the east.  Shopping centers close, schools close, town centers empty out... and sewer systems and utilities have to be rebuilt with a smaller capacity to work properly.

A handful of cities see their population stabilize or grow very slowly as the young who don't flee to the west move to those cities to find work.  The rural areas depopulate almost completely.

This process reinforces itself as death rates only increase in rural areas as those left behind age and die and there are no young left behind to have children.  Meanwhile, in the cities, having children is expensive and a lack of services for families with children keeps birth rates there low as well.

This is where PR is headed.  It is where South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, soon to be China, the whole of Europe less France, the UK, and Scandinavia, increasingly Latin America, and most certainly the Caribbean nations are headed.

Economists are gonna have to completely relearn how to measure and interpret economies and we will have to learn to focus on factors other than growth as signs of economic success... or it's gonna be a tough time ahead.

[Very Legal & Very Cool]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

I mean, there just can't be an idea that you can boycott an election and the results don't count. Imagine if Trump were losing big in 2020, told his supporters to boycott the election, and then claimed his landslide loss didn't count.

Those are fundamentally different scenarios.

No they aren't. If you don't show up to vote, you don't matter.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

I mean, there just can't be an idea that you can boycott an election and the results don't count. Imagine if Trump were losing big in 2020, told his supporters to boycott the election, and then claimed his landslide loss didn't count.

Those are fundamentally different scenarios.

No they aren't. If you don't show up to vote, you don't matter.

In the real world; in elections, sure, your vote doesn't matter. In non-binding referendums; your vote or lack thereof matters a great deal in the enforcement and legitimacy of that referendum.

[Badger]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

To be completely fair; the people of Puerto Rico have some blame in this for being so damn indecisive when it comes to whether they want Independence or Statehood. Clearly the status quo isn't fairing well for them, but they seem intent on keeping it.

They voted like 97% for statehood in June 2017.

The referendum was boycotted by opponents of Statehood and got literally 23% turnout. So once again, they couldn't even be bothered to turnout.

I mean, there just can't be an idea that you can boycott an election and the results don't count. Imagine if Trump were losing big in 2020, told his supporters to boycott the election, and then claimed his landslide loss didn't count.

Those are fundamentally different scenarios.

No they aren't. If you don't show up to vote, you don't matter.

In the real world; in elections, sure, your vote doesn't matter. In non-binding referendums; your vote or lack thereof matters a great deal in the enforcement and legitimacy of that referendum.

This is true. I strongly support statehood for Puerto Rico, but support for it on the island has to be solid to overwhelming, which isn't currently clear-cut.

[pbrower2a]

People who cannot decide their national leaders eventually get $crewed. This applies to people who either have no elections to decide their rulers or have elections that simply ratify existing or selected officials without their choice or meaningful input. Even with Dubya, one of our weakest Presidents, Puerto Ricans avoided that problem. There is a large Puerto Rican diaspora in the American mainland, and it votes.

Donald Trump has shown characteristics of an uncaring leader who holds anyone unlikely to vote for him in contempt.

If I were a Puerto Rican in Puerto Rico and I thought Donald Trump the sort of leader that the US was going to have for years, I would either want independence or even dominion status in association with Spain. That is how bad i think Donald Trump is -- and I have no connection to Puerto Rico! 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If I were a Puerto Rican in Puerto Rico and I thought Donald Trump the sort of leader that the US was going to have for years, I would either want independence or even dominion status in association with Spain. That is how bad i think Donald Trump is -- and I have no connection to Puerto Rico! 

Let's engage in a little thought experiment.  What if Puerto Rico had gained independence back in 1952 instead of ts current status?  We'd certainly see a Puerto Rico that looks much more like the Dominican Republic, tho how similar is a matter for debate. Puerto Rico's population would be higher as emigration to the mainland would have been much less. Per capita income would be lower in both real dollars and PPP terms. And last but not least, if you think the response to 2017's hurricanes was bad, just imagine how much worse it would have been if Puerto Rico wasn't part of the United States.  While I doubt it would be as bad as the response has been in Haiti to natural disasters over the years (I see how it possibly could be that bad), it would certainly be worse than what happened in reality.

That's why independence gets so little support in Puerto Rico. Despite the neglect they get from Washington, they only have to look at the countries in the Caribbean to realize how much worse it could be.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Let's engage in a little thought experiment.  What if Puerto Rico had gained independence back in 1952 instead of ts current status? 

Bush 43 would have carried Florida by a margin large enough to have not required the kind of recount drama that occurred.

Gore carried Osceola County by 1,950 votes; this was due to a massive Hispanic inmigration to that county in the 1990s.  A large majority of these folks were Puerto Ricans.  To that margin you would have to add the large number of Puerto Ricans that migrated to Orange County (Orlando) to resettle.

Migration from Puerto Rico to Florida is one reason Florida is far more Democratic at the Presidential level than it was in 1988.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Let's engage in a little thought experiment.  What if Puerto Rico had gained independence back in 1952 instead of its current status? 

Bush 43 would have carried Florida by a margin large enough to have not required the kind of recount drama that occurred.

You're assuming an independent Puerto Rico wouldn't have caused all sorts of butterflies in the region. For instance, the Cuban Revolution might have turned out differently so that fewer Cubans ended up in South Florida.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Let's engage in a little thought experiment.  What if Puerto Rico had gained independence back in 1952 instead of its current status? 

Bush 43 would have carried Florida by a margin large enough to have not required the kind of recount drama that occurred.

You're assuming an independent Puerto Rico wouldn't have caused all sorts of butterflies in the region. For instance, the Cuban Revolution might have turned out differently so that fewer Cubans ended up in South Florida.

The Cuban Exiles of the 1960s onward were looking to America, only 90 miles away. 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Let's engage in a little thought experiment.  What if Puerto Rico had gained independence back in 1952 instead of its current status? 

Bush 43 would have carried Florida by a margin large enough to have not required the kind of recount drama that occurred.

You're assuming an independent Puerto Rico wouldn't have caused all sorts of butterflies in the region. For instance, the Cuban Revolution might have turned out differently so that fewer Cubans ended up in South Florida.

The Cuban Exiles of the 1960s onward were looking to America, only 90 miles away. 

And what if there were no exiles or the Revolution didn't go full blown Communist?  My point, which you seem determined to ignore, is that a different Puerto Rico creates all sorts of differences in what happens in the Caribbean, so you can't just assume everything else would be exactly the same as in our time line. That said, if you really want to discuss what would happen in an a world with an independent Puerto Rico, start a thread in the Alternate History board. My reason for bringing up the idea here was not to explore alternate history but to point out why even Trump won't give Puerto Rico a reason to consider independence.

[Famous Mortimer]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

This is so dumb. Puerto Rico contributes nothing in federal taxes but gets billions in federal aid. The federal government is not exploiting Puerto Rico, it's the other way around.

[Dr. Arch]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

This is so dumb. Puerto Rico contributes nothing in federal taxes but gets billions in federal aid. The federal government is not exploiting Puerto Rico, it's the other way around.

Yeah, because all those payments in Import/Export taxes via the Jones Act are non-existent, which by the way, are mandated to go through a mainland port before it comes to Puerto Rico, even if it's being shipped from a neighboring country like the Dominican Republic. At least get a little bit informed before going on your usual tirades of ignorance so you can circumvent logic like you usually do.

I post this information for the use of others, as I know it will be lost on you (see below).

"As residents of Puerto Rico pay into Social Security, Puerto Ricans are eligible for Social Security benefits upon retirement but are excluded from the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Commonwealth of Puerto Rico residents, unlike residents of the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands and residents of the 50 States, do not receive the SSI),[26] and the island actually receives less than 15% of the Medicaid funding it would normally receive if it were a state."

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico#cite_note-26 (via ssa.org)

"A common misconception is that the import/export taxes collected by the U.S. on products manufactured in Puerto Rico are all returned to the Puerto Rico Treasury. That is not the case, as such import/export taxes are returned only for rum products, and even then, the US Treasury keeps a portion of the taxes" (Read: Indirect taxation, and it's quite a lot)

Link: https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/house-bill/900 (HR-900)

See this reddit thread for a larger discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/4ep8hr/does_puerto_rico_account_for_a_net_benefit_or/


In short, there is plenty of de facto Federal Income tax in Puerto Rico, and it adds up to much more than the average American citizen would pay in any state. It's all hidden behind different names, but it's there. You would feel it if you lived there.

On top of that, you get fractional benefits from the Federal Government, such as severely reduced Medicaid and an inability to vote or be represented in any meaningful way in Congress, on top of ignorant people (like such person above who doesn't bother to look into anything and prefers to spew talking points) adding insult to injury.

[Badger]

Puerto Rico exists solely as a colony to be exploited by its dominating imperial power. That's why their status as US citizens will be downplayed, their bid for statehood will be denied, and whatever resources they have (human and natural) will be extracted and appropriated (almost entirely) by people located in distant power centers. And, thanks to the current method of capitalist domination, they're also experiencing the wonders of crippling debt, high interest rates, and forced privatization while simultaneously being punished with austerity aimed at crippling their lower and working classes for daring to aspire to a modicum of basic human dignity.

If our government couldn't muster a shred of care about all the poor (mostly POC) people abandoned in New Orleans and left to die, flooded by a storm that broke a levee system that was systematically underfunded and carelessly neglected; if our government couldn't be bothered to make the necessary investments in Flint's water infrastructure, even after the lead poisoning occurred, and still neglects the very lives of its own citizens in a US state; what the hell makes anyone think our government would treat Puerto Ricans as if they're actual human beings?

The raw truth. I also believe Puerto Rico is functioning as a lab test for future attempts to implement nationwide austerity to the extreme.

This is so dumb. Puerto Rico contributes nothing in federal taxes but gets billions in federal aid. The federal government is not exploiting Puerto Rico, it's the other way around.

Yeah, because all those payments in Import/Export taxes via the Jones Act are non-existent, which by the way, are mandated to go through a mainland port before it comes to Puerto Rico, even if it's being shipped from a neighboring country like the Dominican Republic. At least get a little bit informed before going on your usual tirades of ignorance so you can circumvent logic like you usually do.

I post this information for the use of others, as I know it will be lost on you (see below).

"As residents of Puerto Rico pay into Social Security, Puerto Ricans are eligible for Social Security benefits upon retirement but are excluded from the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Commonwealth of Puerto Rico residents, unlike residents of the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands and residents of the 50 States, do not receive the SSI),[26] and the island actually receives less than 15% of the Medicaid funding it would normally receive if it were a state."

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico#cite_note-26 (via ssa.org)

"A common misconception is that the import/export taxes collected by the U.S. on products manufactured in Puerto Rico are all returned to the Puerto Rico Treasury. That is not the case, as such import/export taxes are returned only for rum products, and even then, the US Treasury keeps a portion of the taxes" (Read: Indirect taxation, and it's quite a lot)

Link: https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/house-bill/900 (HR-900)

See this reddit thread for a larger discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/4ep8hr/does_puerto_rico_account_for_a_net_benefit_or/


In short, there is plenty of de facto Federal Income tax in Puerto Rico, and it adds up to much more than the average American citizen would pay in any state. It's all hidden behind different names, but it's there. You would feel it if you lived there.

On top of that, you get fractional benefits from the Federal Government, such as severely reduced Medicaid and an inability to vote or be represented in any meaningful way in Congress, on top of ignorant people (like such person above who doesn't bother to look into anything and prefers to spew talking points) adding insult to injury.

As usual, mortimer's posts can be readily translated into " dirty ignorant lazy spics are dragging us down".