John Dingell: Abolish the Senate

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Abolish the Senate, double the size of the House, introduce mixed member proportional, abolish the Presidency and have the executive chosen from the House as in a parliamentary system.

No thank you!

"And don't tell me about London and Berlin, god save us from the mess they are in".

Except the German and (admittedly slightly more arguably) the British constitutional systems are far more efficient than the American and in 2018 it's blind nationalism to argue anything else. US-style 'checks and balances' just leads to total legislative gridlock and periodic political crises, and in the power vacuum policy being enacted through dubious executive orders and SCOTUS legislating from the bench.

[AtorBoltox]

Why do Republicans struggle so mightily with the concept of one person, one vote?

[Strudelcutie4427]

Why do Republicans struggle so mightily with the concept of one person, one vote?

Why do democrats struggle so mightily with reading the constitution

[Flyersfan232]

he would have never said this had the democrats won the senate.

[Kyle Rittenhouse is a Political Prisoner]

Why do Republicans struggle so mightily with the concept of one person, one vote?

Why do democrats struggle so mightily with reading the constitution

There is a difference between is and ought.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Serious question for anyone who thinks that it is not a problem how grossly unrepresentative the Senate is.

Currently people in Wyoming count 69 times more than people in California in the Senate.

If you don't think that 69 times more is a problem, how high would it have to go for you to consider it to be a problem and a fatal flaw in the American system of government?

100 times more?

1000 times more?

100,000 times more?

1,000,000 times more?

What?

Infinity?

[fluffypanther19]

You know, Democrats used to have 2 senators from North Dakota. They had a majority leader from South Dakota. They could win in places like Alaska, Louisiana, and (until recently) Indiana. They never complained about how undemocratic the chamber was then.

Perhaps the problem is not that the Senate is some ill-planned political abomination, but that through poor political calculation, Democrats have joined Republicans in becoming unelectable in parts of the country. A once national party is now regional, but its clearly the founders fault.

this x10000.  i believe that the artificial cap on the number of house needs to go which will expand the house and lessen some of the disparity in the electoral college. However, the big thing that both parties need to do is expand their bases. a little more ideological heterogeneity would do dems and reps some good. (See reps in CA and dems in IA)

[Florida Man for Crime]

However, the big thing that both parties need to do is expand their bases. a little more ideological heterogeneity would do dems and reps some good. (See reps in CA and dems in IA)

A pony would do both parties a some good. Ponies for both parties!

[Ye We Can]

Ancient fossil who nobody's heard of and served most of his life in the house wants to abolish the other legislature

Nobody cares

[SWE]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

[Strudelcutie4427]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? Leave

[Kodak]

The entire concept of statehood is rapidly losing meaning in modern America.

Upstate New York, which has as many residents as Minnesota and Tennessee, is constantly outvoted by the New York Metro Area, but there is no legal mechanism allowing it to form its own state even if it wanted to and every Upstate legislator wanted to. Downstate Illinois now faces a similar situation. The state of Delaware has become a tax haven. Many state borders in the west are simply lines of latitude and longitude that do not correspond to communities or geography (although some do) because they were set in place before people had moved there.

Many industries are now spread across most or all 50 states, with extraction industries being the notable exceptions. States with large urban populations rarely attempt to fight their farmers, even though they could get away with it. States do not need to exist to resolve water rights disputes.

Aside from the fossil fuel industries and possibly the hunter community, what constituencies do any of the 50 states represent in any meaningful way that one big state couldn't? And further, do their Senators even do a good job of representing those interests?

[Tintrlvr]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

And that process goes through the Senate and the states.

That's why this thread is full of fun little extralegal revolutionary fanfic.

[Tintrlvr]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

And that process goes through the Senate and the states.

That's why this thread is full of fun little extralegal revolutionary fanfic.

"It's difficult, so you shouldn't advocate for it."

That's not an argument.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

And that process goes through the Senate and the states.

That's why this thread is full of fun little extralegal revolutionary fanfic.

"It's difficult, so you shouldn't advocate for it."

That's not an argument.

"It's not going to happen legally because it is asking the very groups it would disenfranchise to authorize it, so here's an unconstitutional fantasy about a President doing it unilaterally" isn't an argument either.

[Tintrlvr]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

And that process goes through the Senate and the states.

That's why this thread is full of fun little extralegal revolutionary fanfic.

"It's difficult, so you shouldn't advocate for it."

That's not an argument.

"It's not going to happen legally because it is asking the very groups it would disenfranchise to authorize it, so here's an unconstitutional fantasy about a President doing it unilaterally" isn't an argument either.

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone in this thread said a President could or should do so unilaterally?

(That said, it would probably be good for the country in the long term if a President did so, especially if it was followed up by abolishing their own office...)

[Strudelcutie4427]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

And that process goes through the Senate and the states.

That's why this thread is full of fun little extralegal revolutionary fanfic.

"It's difficult, so you shouldn't advocate for it."

That's not an argument.

"It's not going to happen legally because it is asking the very groups it would disenfranchise to authorize it, so here's an unconstitutional fantasy about a President doing it unilaterally" isn't an argument either.

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone in this thread said a President could or should do so unilaterally?

(That said, it would probably be good for the country in the long term if a President did so, especially if it was followed up by abolishing their own office...)

If a president could abolish a legislature that is a dictatorship.

See Venezuela

[Tintrlvr]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? LeaveChange it

That is, after all, what the amendment process is for.

And that process goes through the Senate and the states.

That's why this thread is full of fun little extralegal revolutionary fanfic.

"It's difficult, so you shouldn't advocate for it."

That's not an argument.

"It's not going to happen legally because it is asking the very groups it would disenfranchise to authorize it, so here's an unconstitutional fantasy about a President doing it unilaterally" isn't an argument either.

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone in this thread said a President could or should do so unilaterally?

(That said, it would probably be good for the country in the long term if a President did so, especially if it was followed up by abolishing their own office...)

If a president could abolish a legislature that is a dictatorship.

See Venezuela

Nah, there'd still be a legislature: the House. It's obviously extra-Constitutional, but that's not the argument. A few decades later, it would be viewed as a positive and democracy-advancing step (especially if the Presidency were abolished in the same go).

Of course, that really is fantasy, but it seems that no one before Ray even suggested it on this thread.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

The Senate is meant for bipartisanship. Minority and Majority leaders work together, but McConnell isnt workable. Dems must retake senate back in 2020 so that PR can add 2 more Dems

[Progressive Pessimist]

Serious question for anyone who thinks that it is not a problem how grossly unrepresentative the Senate is.

Currently people in Wyoming count 69 times more than people in California in the Senate.

If you don't think that 69 times more is a problem, how high would it have to go for you to consider it to be a problem and a fatal flaw in the American system of government?

100 times more?

1000 times more?

100,000 times more?

1,000,000 times more?

What?

Infinity?

If the political preferences of the current 50 states were reversed, and Democrats consistently had two Senators out of many of the country's least populous states that padded out a Senate majority that even if small would act like it holds a super-majority and a mandate over most of the country, they would be singing a much different tune. That's how Republicans operate mentally: "nothing matters until it affects me." It's the same case with the electoral college. Just look at what they're doing to Governor-elects Evers and Whitmer.

[SWE]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? Leave

I mean, if residence in a country required one to endorse every aspect of how its government is run uncritically like you apparently want, my preference would absolutely be to live somewhere else.

[Progressive Pessimist]

The entire point is still to protect small states from the laws of a small number of mega states. The states have some independence of one another and the senate is the chamber of Congress meant to represent their interests.

Yeah but that's really stupid

The country is a federation of 50 co-equal semi autonomous states. Don’t like it? Leave

I mean, if residence in a country required one to endorse every aspect of how its government is run uncritically like you apparently want, my preference would absolutely be to live somewhere else.

I agree. It's such a stupid argument that doesn't seem to be going away.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Other brilliant ideas that make as much sense as balancing "small states versus large states"

* Balancing the interests of states on the coasts and the states on the interior
* Balancing the interests of states with more Red Sox fans vs. more Yankees fans
* Balancing the interests of states that start with letters A - M and those that start with N - W
* Balancing the states where the state flower is edible versus those where the state flower is not edible

I don't really care how arbitrary this looks to y'all - if you ever read a history book you'd know the framers of the constitution surely wouldn't have wanted those landlocked, Yankee-fan, M-state stamen-munchers to have disproportionate sway in the crafting of laws!!

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

McConnell went along with Trump power grab to secure conservative majority, you dont change senate due to one man, you defeat him and dems have to win Senate back