Congressional Special Election (last call! unstickied after NY-27 final results)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 23, 2024, 05:41:55 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  Congressional Elections (Moderators: Brittain33, GeorgiaModerate, Gass3268, Virginiá, Gracile)
  Congressional Special Election (last call! unstickied after NY-27 final results)
« previous next »
Thread note

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 ... 74
Author Topic: Congressional Special Election (last call! unstickied after NY-27 final results)  (Read 170471 times)
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,285
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #150 on: December 01, 2018, 09:54:33 PM »


Oh, OK, good.
Logged
Dr Oz Lost Party!
PittsburghSteel
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,033
United States


P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #151 on: December 01, 2018, 11:47:36 PM »


So more likely than not, a Democrat gets this seat.
Logged
lfromnj
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,551


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #152 on: December 01, 2018, 11:51:38 PM »

A special election is Tilt r imo. It resembles ohio 12th overall
Logged
MAINEiac4434
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,269
France


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -8.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #153 on: December 02, 2018, 12:34:10 AM »

A special election would require another primary. If I had to guess, there’s no way Harris is winning that even with the odds stacked in his favor. We could see Pittenger run again, and win the special primary and election.
Logged
lfromnj
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,551


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #154 on: December 02, 2018, 12:41:12 AM »

Pittenger v harris is anyway like mini moore and strange. Both are weak candidates. Its just that Pittenger looks better so everyone he's a strong candidate.
Logged
GeorgiaModerate
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,982


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #155 on: December 02, 2018, 08:14:29 AM »

A special election would require another primary. If I had to guess, there’s no way Harris is winning that even with the odds stacked in his favor. We could see Pittenger run again, and win the special primary and election.

Can the board order a new primary, or just a general election?  The primary result was previously certified.  (To be clear, I think they should start over with a new primary, since it looks tainted as well.)
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,976


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #156 on: December 02, 2018, 10:03:38 AM »
« Edited: December 02, 2018, 10:08:41 AM by TCash101 »

Here’s where I’m having trouble with the math: is this about the high number of ballots FOR Harris or is it also about the number of ballots requested but not turned in? Were ballots being changed, collected and not turned in, or both? If ballots were collected but not turned in, it means we can’t only look at the numbers FOR Harris to determine if fraud took place but also consider that votes were destroyed which broadens the possibilities it could have impacted the numbers. And if a Harris vote was changed to a Dem vote, that changes the margin by 2, right?

Do the completed absentee ballots show who they belong to? Does it only depend on a legible signature? What do we think investigators will do? Contact each absentee voter to see if A. They turned one in B. How they turned one in. C. If it still reflects how they voted (was it altered?)
Logged
BundouYMB
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 910


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #157 on: December 02, 2018, 10:07:49 AM »

Here’s where I’m having trouble with the math: is this about the high number of ballots FOR Harris or is it also about the number of ballots requested but not turned in? Were ballots being changed, collected and not turned in? If ballots were collected but not turned in, it means we can’t only look at the numbers FOR Harris to determine if fraud took place but also consider that votes were destroyed which broadens the possibilities it could have impacted the numbers. And if a Harris vote was changed to a Dem vote, that changes the margin by 2, right?

Do the completed absentee ballots show who they belong to? Does it only depend on a legible signature? What do we think investigators will do? Contact each absentee voter to see if A. They turned one in B. How they turned one in. C. If it still reflects how they voted (was it altered?)

It's suspected that the Harris campaign may have both illegally filled out absentee ballots AND destroyed absentee ballots for McCready. I assume they will be speaking with individual absentee voters, because there are affidavits from voters that the Harris campaign took their absentee ballots.

AFAIK there is no way to determine a ballot was returned by a specific voter, which makes C moot.
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,976


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #158 on: December 02, 2018, 10:32:42 AM »

Here’s where I’m having trouble with the math: is this about the high number of ballots FOR Harris or is it also about the number of ballots requested but not turned in? Were ballots being changed, collected and not turned in? If ballots were collected but not turned in, it means we can’t only look at the numbers FOR Harris to determine if fraud took place but also consider that votes were destroyed which broadens the possibilities it could have impacted the numbers. And if a Harris vote was changed to a Dem vote, that changes the margin by 2, right?

Do the completed absentee ballots show who they belong to? Does it only depend on a legible signature? What do we think investigators will do? Contact each absentee voter to see if A. They turned one in B. How they turned one in. C. If it still reflects how they voted (was it altered?)

It's suspected that the Harris campaign may have both illegally filled out absentee ballots AND destroyed absentee ballots for McCready. I assume they will be speaking with individual absentee voters, because there are affidavits from voters that the Harris campaign took their absentee ballots.

AFAIK there is no way to determine a ballot was returned by a specific voter, which makes C moot.

Makes sense. I know one of the affidavits talked about it not being signed so wasn’t sure how identifiable it was.

It would *seem* that in Bladen, due to the lower return rate for Republicans, it’s less likely Dem ballots were destroyed, which would inflate Republican turnout. Whereas Robeson is the opposite, with high Republican return numbers and a high rate of ballots not returned overall. So either ballots were destroyed or they planned to work Robeson the same way they did Bladen, and got lots of requests for ballots in, but didn’t follow through as much collecting them.
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,976


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #159 on: December 02, 2018, 10:56:20 AM »

Though it would seem they have to know who a mail in ballot is coming in from as they keep records of who votes. Maybe it’s on the envelope outside and not identifiable where the votes/choices are made, but for verification purposes, it would have to be somewhere. So they should be able to ask those who requested if they returned, just not if it has been altered.
Logged
Landslide Lyndon
px75
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,025
Greece


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #160 on: December 02, 2018, 01:34:18 PM »

I'm sure it's a total coincidence.

Logged
Virginiá
Virginia
Administratrix
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,909
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.97, S: -5.91

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #161 on: December 02, 2018, 01:55:02 PM »

btw whats everyone opinion on California's ballot harvesting. No I am not using whataboutism as this would be comparing legalized prostitution to illegal prostitution as in California it is legal.

Does anyone else feel like that should be illegal in California?

I consider myself vehemently pro-voter in terms of restrictions vs access, and I'm not sure I agree that campaign workers and other paid individuals should be able to take ballots and return them. I feel like there is too much room for abuse, and California's elections have become so voter-friendly that it is hard to argue that this is needed.

I want to try and strike a balance between voter-friendly policy and a free-for-all that results in some high-profile incident that the right never stops using against Democrats as a way to delegitimize an election. With trust in our institutions constantly declining, the last thing we need is more reasons for people to lose faith in our elections.

OTOH, "ballot harvesting" is not even legal in North Carolina and it still happened, so whether its' technically legal or not may not be that important when it comes to fraud.
Logged
lfromnj
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,551


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #162 on: December 02, 2018, 01:57:20 PM »

btw whats everyone opinion on California's ballot harvesting. No I am not using whataboutism as this would be comparing legalized prostitution to illegal prostitution as in California it is legal.

Does anyone else feel like that should be illegal in California?

I consider myself vehemently pro-voter in terms of restrictions vs access, and I'm not sure I agree that campaign workers and other paid individuals should be able to take ballots and return them. I feel like there is too much room for abuse, and California's elections have become so voter-friendly that it is hard to argue that this is needed.

I want to try and strike a balance between voter-friendly policy and a free-for-all that results in some high-profile incident that the right never stops using against Democrats as a way to delegitimize an election. With trust in our institutions constantly declining, the last thing we need is more reasons for people to lose faith in our elections.

OTOH, "ballot harvesting" is not even legal in North Carolina and it still happened, so whether its' technically legal or not may not be that important when it comes to fraud.
I think I can mostly agree with what you said. I mean I just find the idea in California bad but it's still legal but in carolina it's illegal so if they can prove it happened with either Harris having knowledge or if the harvested ballots were destroyed a new election should be called
Logged
I spent the winter writing songs about getting better
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 113,288
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2018, 02:03:03 PM »

Mind you what's being described as happening here would be illegal even in California.
Logged
lfromnj
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,551


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #164 on: December 02, 2018, 02:04:47 PM »

Anyway maybe there could be some restrictions on it in California at the very least? Perhaps you have to register as a harvest or ? Would anyone support that ?
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,976


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #165 on: December 02, 2018, 02:09:48 PM »

No, mail it in or take it in. No one should be handling them other than Election officials and they shouldn’t be going to peoples houses to get them. There are restrictions; they were violated here resulting in a fraud investigation.
Logged
Virginiá
Virginia
Administratrix
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,909
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.97, S: -5.91

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #166 on: December 02, 2018, 02:14:38 PM »

No, mail it in or take it in. No one should be handling them other than Election officials and they shouldn’t be going to peoples houses to get them. There are restrictions; they were violated here resulting in a fraud investigation.

We're talking about hypothetical for states where it is legal for people to pick up ballots and deliver them for others.
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,976


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #167 on: December 02, 2018, 02:26:04 PM »

No, mail it in or take it in. No one should be handling them other than Election officials and they shouldn’t be going to peoples houses to get them. There are restrictions; they were violated here resulting in a fraud investigation.

We're talking about hypothetical for states where it is legal for people to pick up ballots and deliver them for others.

Gotcha, this is what threw me off, or what I was reacting to in what you bolded.


OTOH, "ballot harvesting" is not even legal in North Carolina and it still happened, so whether its' technically legal or not may not be that important when it comes to fraud.
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,976


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #168 on: December 02, 2018, 03:14:44 PM »

https://popular.info/p/man-at-center-of-north-carolina-election

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

There’s more, too...
Logged
GeorgiaModerate
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,982


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #169 on: December 02, 2018, 03:29:56 PM »

I really want to hear Kris Kobach's response to all this voter fraud.
Logged
Virginiá
Virginia
Administratrix
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,909
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.97, S: -5.91

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #170 on: December 02, 2018, 03:46:13 PM »

I really want to hear Kris Kobach's response to all this voter fraud.

Well if he's like every other Republican, the only answer is to slash early voting and make it harder to register to vote, regardless if the fraud in question had anything to do with it.

If no one can vote, there won't be any more fraud!
Logged
jimrtex
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,817
Marshall Islands


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #171 on: December 02, 2018, 06:15:39 PM »

Can someone provide the Cliffs Notes version of jim's post? It looks like the explanation for fraud that caused incredible and atypical Republican results is "Democrats did something bad" but that is so confusing that I won't believe it.
In 2018, the Republican candidate for Congress in Bladen County got 60% of the votes on election day. He received 61% of the absentee ballots

In Anson County, the election day race was about 50-50. The Democratic candidate got about 75% of the absentee vote.

Which is more atypical?

Here is the story from 2016.

Protest filed in Bladen County over alleged fraudulent absentee ballots

There was an unopposed candidate for a non-partisan office in Bladen County. There was a write-in challenger. As a election clerk was going through the ballots he noticed the similarity in hand-writing of "Franklin Graham", the candidate favored by the Bladen County Improvement PAC, an organization that is funded by the Democratic Party and some Democratic candidates. For example, in 2016, Ken Spaulding, Roy Cooper's opponent in the Democratic Primary, contributed to the PAC, and Bladen County was his best county in the state. Statewide, Cooper had about 2/3 of the vote, but 2/3 of the vote in Bladen County.

This is even more pronounced for absentee ballots. In the 2016 primary:

President: Hillary Clinton 54% statewide, 83% absentee in Bladen.
US Senator: Chris Rey 17% statewide, 84% absentee Bladen.
Governor: Ken Spaulding 31% statewide, 74% absentee Bladen.
Lieutenant Governor: Robert Earl Wilson 11% statewide, 77% absentee Bladen.
Attorney General: Marcus Wilson 47% statewide , 90% absentee Bladen.
Commissioner of Labor: Charles Meeker 57% statewide, 90% absentee Bladen.
Superintendent of Public Instruction: June Atkinson 85% statewide, 95% absentee Bladen.
Treasurer: Dan Blue III 58% statewide, 89% absentee Bladen.

Election day and early voting had somewhat similar results, but not as pronounced. That is, the Bladen County Public Improvement PAC can suggest how to vote, but a voter would be free to vote their choices in private. I suspect, white voters may be less inclined to follow the recommendations of the PAC (Bladen County is 38% black. To see geographic distribution display a political map of the county).

North Carolina requires the marking of an absentee ballot to be witnessed by two persons (one, if a notary). A runner can help you apply for an absentee ballot, which will be mailed to the voter's mailbox. But before it can be marked, there has to be two witnesses. So presumably two runners come back to witness the voters marking the ballot. The statute says that the witnesses should respect the secrecy of the ballot.

But if you are the witness, could you stand out on the front porch and be sure that the voters actually marked the ballot? Besides what kind of rural North Carolinian is going to leave a visitor standing on the porch. They might do that in Fayetteville or Wilmington, and who knows what kind of stuff goes on in Charlotte or Raleigh, but not in Bladen County. A voter may ask for assistance. The assistant is to mark the ballot at the voter's direction.

So the witnesses hand the voter the sample ballot, and avert their eyes as they drink their lemonade, and murmur their assent when the voter says she wishes that Obama was running again, "Yes'm".

Perhaps the voter doesn't have her eyeglasses, or her arthritis is acting up and it is hard to hold a pen. So the witnesses read the sample ballot. "For governor, it says to vote for Ken Spaulding. Should I mark the ballot for Spaulding?"

Or maybe the voters finishes the ballot, and the witness asks if they had voted for Water & Soil Supervisor (it was 29th office on the ballot, the only non-partisan office, and only had one on-ballot candidate). Maybe the witness takes a look at the sample ballot, and notes, "I see that there is a write-in candidate Franklin Graham, do you want me to write his name in?" The witness then writes the name in at the "request" of the voter.

The witness is then to observe the voter placing the ballot in the envelope and sealing it. The voter then fills in a form, and signs it, and the witnesses sign it. In addition, if someone assisted the voter, the assistant is supposed to sign the form.

Horace Dunn's explanation was that the runners didn't realize that they were supposed to sign as assisters, even if they only wrote "Franklin Graham" even if they didn't do the bubbles. The runners may or may not have actually been paid per voter, but only compensated for gas and other expenses. If any runners took advantage of the PAC it was only due to poor bookkeeping.

This was all brought up after the McCrory-Cooper election, when the curiosity of dozens of ballots with "Franklin Graham" written in the same hand, was claimed to be an example of widespread election fraud that had cost McCrory the election.

But it is difficult to prove actual fraud, since there were likely actual voters, and they were willing to be influenced by persons who were supposed to be witnesses as they marked the ballot (if someone is supposed to maintain the secrecy of the ballot, should they hand the voter a sample ballot recommending to the voter how they should vote?). It is a system that is susceptible to corruption.

At the 2016 primary, Ken Register upset an incumbent Democrati county commissioner, Wayne Edge. By a 948:929 margin. The 19 vote margin was just outside the one percent margin to trigger a recount. Register won the absentee vote 189:14. Edge received 54.7% of the in-person voting, both one-stop and election day, but only 6.9% of the absentee vote.

Register would go on to lose the general election to a Republican who I suspect is the first Republican elected as county commissioner in an Bladen County district since Reconstruction. Register made a claim that memory sticks had been tampered with and also claimed absentee ballot fraud. The Republican, Ashley Trivette received 55.8% of the live vote, but only 28.5% of the absentee vote.

Edge ran for the county commission as a Republican in 2018, but narrowly lost to an incumbent Democrat. There are two commissioners from each of three districts, who are elected to overlapping 4-year terms.

Meanwhile in another district, a Democrat-turned Republican was re-elected with 64% of the vote. He had been unchallenged as a Democrat in 2014. The NC representative for the county was also re-elected as a Democrat-turned Republican (he had voted for the Republican redistricting plans and generally sided with the majority).

The three at-large members of the county commission are elected under a limited voting scheme where each voter is limited to one vote. At the 2016 primary, the press noted that the Democrats had chosen their two commissioners, apparently assuming that the normal pattern on one black Democrat, one white Democrat, and one Republican would hold. But in the general election, the black Democrat took so much of the Democratic vote, that two Republicans were elected.

38% of the county is black. That is enough to control the Democratic primary, but not to prevent Republican dominance if they do take control of the primary.



So what is being missed by the press is this longtime practice of curious absentee voting in Bladen County. The NCSBE Democrat member from Robeson County when he noted this long sad history in his part of the state, was not talking about Republicans. What eventually will be determined is that absentee voting is susceptible to corruption, but that no actual fraud took place. Mark Harris will be elected.



Fun fact. The composition of the NCSBE has been ruled unconstitutional by a state court (in October). They stayed their decision until the NCSBE has certified the election results. Does the NCSBE stay in place with their current nine-member board, or does Cooper demand a 3:2 Democrat-dominated board take its place and take over investigation?
Logged
Lachi
lok1999
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,357
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -1.06, S: -3.02

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #172 on: December 02, 2018, 06:29:26 PM »

Has anyone pointed out these mail-in results yet?

Logged
jimrtex
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,817
Marshall Islands


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #173 on: December 02, 2018, 07:22:21 PM »

One reason this is such an issue... is not only did Harris win the general by less than 1000 votes... he won the Primary by 850 votes [and Harris had close to 900 more absentee votes than Pittenger (the incumbent) in Bladen Co.]

Also- the person supposedly at the center of the vote shenanigans... worked for a different candidate in 2016.  That candidate finished 3rd in the 2016 primary... yet overwhelmingly won the absentee vote in Bladen Co.

So the issue is as much about the Primary as it is the general... equally so.

Supposedly the numbers (to a lesser extent) in neighboring Robeson Co were also affected... but for various reasons its harder to prove statistically.
Pittenger was elected from a much different district in 2014.

He finished third in every county outside of Mecklenburg in the 2016 primary.

In Bladen County, Pittenger received 9.5% of the vote in person.

The 2016 congressional primary was a stand-alone primary (there was also a judicial race, but that won't draw voters). The presidential, senatorial, gubernatorial, etc. primaries had been held three months earlier. Even regular voters might be inclined to skip such an election.

North Carolina does not have permanent Vote By Mail. You have to apply for each election. Relatively few voters vote absentee. If you are in a rural area, you might not trust the use of mail box along a rural road. You prefer to drive into town a couple of days a week to pick up your mail out of a locked box at the post office, and do whatever business you have, maybe stop by the cafe for lunch or a cup of coffee. Since the House primary was the only race, it would be the candidates doing GOTV, and helping voters apply for an absentee ballot, which in this case would be a convenience.

The "third-place candidate" in 2016 received 30.6% of the vote in a true three-way race. He had 54.5% of the in person vote in Bladen County.
Logged
lfromnj
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,551


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #174 on: December 02, 2018, 07:22:43 PM »

Has anyone pointed out these mail-in results yet?



whats the other county data. It looks suspicious but I would need to see it next to the other counties.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 ... 74  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.061 seconds with 10 queries.