Should Brett Kavanaugh withdraw his nomination?

[Slander and/or Libel]

And there are plenty of people who aren’t saying “she’s lying” but who are saying “if she doesn’t testify on Monday and only Monday ben I will have to presume that she is lying” rather than that she is terrified and worried for her life.

[Fuzzy Bear]

And there are plenty of people who aren’t saying “she’s lying” but who are saying “if she doesn’t testify on Monday and only Monday ben I will have to presume that she is lying” rather than that she is terrified and worried for her life.

That's a long way from saying something is part of "Rape Culture".  And while I don't take that particular position, I don't think this is particularly unreasonable.

The "Rape Culture" criers here are unconcerned with the result of going to the opposite extreme.  That opposite extreme is the assignment of complete truthfulness (and not just the presumption) of every allegation of sexual impropriety made by a woman.  I'm not down with victim blaming and shaming, but (A) that's not happening here, and (B) a number of folks ere have no concern for the potential of false allegations and their effects.

Do men have the right to some protections from false allegations?  That's another discussion, and that's not the case with Kavanaugh.  But a lot of folks here seem to believe that this is just OK, and the reason they seem to believe it's OK is that it drives a greater political narrative they approve of. 

 

[Slander and/or Libel]

And there are plenty of people who aren’t saying “she’s lying” but who are saying “if she doesn’t testify on Monday and only Monday ben I will have to presume that she is lying” rather than that she is terrified and worried for her life.

That's a long way from saying something is part of "Rape Culture".  And while I don't take that particular position, I don't think this is particularly unreasonable.

The "Rape Culture" criers here are unconcerned with the result of going to the opposite extreme.  That opposite extreme is the assignment of complete truthfulness (and not just the presumption) of every allegation of sexual impropriety made by a woman.  I'm not down with victim blaming and shaming, but (A) that's not happening here, and (B) a number of folks ere have no concern for the potential of false allegations and their effects.

Do men have the right to some protections from false allegations?  That's another discussion, and that's not the case with Kavanaugh.  But a lot of folks here seem to believe that this is just OK, and the reason they seem to believe it's OK is that it drives a greater political narrative they approve of. 

 

If you don’t think it has anything to do with Kavanaugh, ehh are you bringing it up here?

Also, there *are* people blaming and shaming. People are presuming she’s lying unless she can meet some arbitrary and unspecified standard of proof. And if the death threats and character assassination scare her out of coming further forward, there are people in this very thread saying they will take that as proof that she was lying in the first place. Beer has basically written a tawdry psychological thriller about the whole thing.

[America Needs R'hllor]

If he's guilty, sure, he has to. If he's not, then no. He knows if he's guilty. It's that simple.

[pbrower2a]

The level of discourse about this from conservatives really shows how pervasive rape culture is

How? 

Very few people are saying that Ford should not testify or that she is lying.

A number of people are saying, "Let's see if we can verify her story."  I'm one of them.

Maybe Ford can identify some of the other people at the party, and investigators could ask them.

Better yet, the FBI can look at the class yearbook, trace people in it, and find out someone who might know something who at the time thought the incident nothing more than a randy lad sowing his wild oats with some slut. The FBI is very good at convincing innocent people to talk about shady behavior.  Oh, she wasn't some slut or whore? 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Rape is not culture.  It is simply abysmal behavior just short of the absolute worst (like genocide and slavery).

The antithesis would be a 'love culture' which insists that people develop love before having sex. In such a culture, sex is best done fully sober so that both can feel it intensely and truly enjoy it.  When I was seventeen, I recognized that there were some very attractive black girls, I also figured that I most likely had little in common with them -- especially in musical tastes. Music was then, and still is, important to me.

I'm guessing that the rapist thinks that he is God's Gift to Women, and that his violent sexuality will be excused when she "enjoys it" after being overpowered. I see no culture in that. Drunken sex? Appalling!
   

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Rape Culture is a cheap term for cheap intellects to make cheap arguments.

This matter involves all sorts of conflicting principles, many of which are important in a fundamental way.  The fact that Kavanaugh was 17 is relevant.  The fact that the accusation is late in coming and the accuser is somewhat reluctant is, indeed, relevant.  The fact that the alleged victim passed a polygraph and has the kind of mental health counseling history common to many trauma victims is relevant.  These things all are in conflict, and all are important.

We should reasonably expect better of our leaders. The service academies would reject someone who shows evidence of exploiting vulnerable people for sexual indulgence. The typical narrative of highly-successful people does not begin "I was a bad boy when I grew up. I shoplifted, I sold drugs, I stole cars, and I knocked up maybe eight girls. Once I saw that that would get me into trouble I gave that up".

Some cultures recognize that at some age less than 18 that one is responsible for ethical choices and do not have the excuse of some desire or drive -- perhaps even the survival instinct. For those cultures, drunkenness is not an excuse. Some cultures even have a big party and religious ceremony to celebrate an adolescent making such a choice.

Most success stories do not have redemption from evil as a part of the narrative.

The only question that I can have about Bret Kavanaugh is whether there is some flawed identification that might result in a sincere, but wrongful accusation. I do not believe that 'something always sticks'. But that is for an investigative organization such as the FBI to find out. The FBI typically asks numerous people, mostly innocent, about details that innocent people can clear themselves on. Someone not so innocent fouls up somehow, at which time the FBI has a ruthless effectiveness that even the Gestapo and the KGB would have envied.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I had hoped that this confirmation process had had a focus on his judicial philosophy (such as selective rejection of stare decisis on behalf of the political leadership at the time or his core ideology) and not some allegation of rape as a teenager. But if you are seventeen, you must know that drunkenness absolves nothing, that non-consensual sex is inexcusable, and that getting away with a horrible deed is not innocence.

I strongly recommend Crime and Punsihment to any intelligent youth.

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

Interesting:

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaybookmanajc/status/1042386834284789760

[SCNCmod]

I think in the end (assuming Dr Ford testifies in some manner) what will sink Kavanaugh's nomination is Kavanaugh lying about the incident more so than the incident itself.

... since it is almost impossible to prove one way or the other- if Collins, Murkowski, Flake get the sense that Ford is telling the truth (and the impression that Kavanaugh is lying by flatly denying it) ...I think that will be enough to make 2/3 of these senator's vote against him.

[SCNCmod]

OVERALL---------> noone will know for sure- but Kavanaugh is not facing jail time or financial loss... so the standard isn't beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal standard)... rather its more of a civil law standard (more likely than not... 51%).   And from what I've heard so far regarding circumstantial evidence etc (listed below)- Dr Ford's Account definitely meets the more likely than not (51%) threshold.

1- Ford brought this up in couples therapy and to her husband- far before Kavanaugh was even on the list of potential nominees (remember Kavanaugh was not on either the original list or the 1st Amended list).

2- Ford reached out to a friend who posted a "me too" story on facebook to offer support and share that she had also been through a traumatic situation... again, before Kavanaugh was even on the list of potential nominees.

3- Dr Ford Passed a polygraph

4- Dr Ford named a 2nd person in the room- who is a good friend of Kavanaugh and was obviously going to deny any recollection (if she was lying, there would be absolutely no reason to add a witness who was one of Kavanaugh's best friends).

5- Kavanaugh's first reaction was to flatly deny ever attending the party (if he were innocent- his initial statement/ reaction would more likely he had no clue what she is talking about- he has never done anything like this, etc. ... all of which he said subsequently after everyone pointed out saying you never attended the party seemed suspect).

6- Everyone supporting Kavanaugh says he was basically a choir boy, never drunk, etc. (almost trying to saying it isn't even possible because he was never really drunk or out of control in high school).  This loses credibility when he best friend recounts lots of drunk escapades in High School.



 

[All Along The Watchtower]

Yes, Brett Kavanaugh should withdraw his nomination to the DC Circuit Court of Appeals because he lied under oath.

Confused by the rest of the thread, so no comment from there.