Day 48: West Virginia

[MaC]

West Virginia, said by many on this forum to be the most populist state in the union.  Also said to be trending Republican.  It did vote for Bush twice, but only once for Reagan...

That said, discuss
(Have fun Al)

[memphis]

An often overlooked reason for why West Virginia has moved into the Republican column in recent years is that I would suspect any liberal Democrat would have left for a more urban environment. If you were a liberal, would you stay in West Virginia? That being said, I'd like to  hear reasons for why Appalachia is so Republican. It's one of the poorest regions in the nation, but the Dems don't do well here even as the Republicans legislate one upper-income tax break after another. Why? Is blocking gay marriage more important than feeding your family?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

An often overlooked reason for why West Virginia has moved into the Republican column in recent years

West Virginia hasn't moved anywhere, the main political issues and where voters stand on them are the same as they were in 1960; food (meant in an old sense of general economic and social assistence), flag, God (as far as religion goes, most of West Virginia has some very unusual patterns, but that's going off topic). The only change as far as the state goes has been depopulation in the older coalfields and some patchy suburban growth (these newish suburbs are much more blue collar than new suburbs pretty much anywhere else, btw) something evident with the slow but steady decline of the state's population and the number of Democrats (down from hovering around 70% in the '60's to hovering around 60%). It's hard to think of a state that's changed as little as West Virginia over a period of 45 years.
What's changed is the national Democratic Party.

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In the modern sense of what [American] liberal means, there aren't many in West Virginia and never have been. A lot of people who would have been described as "liberal" as recently as the '80's though.

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Why not?

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With the exceptions of a few pockets of post-1860 Republicanism (and there are several of these in West Virginia; mostly towards the Maryland border, but also the rural area behind Parkersburg) and some affluent (for the region anyway) suburbs, Appalachia is not Republican, especially not Central Appalachia. It's heavily Democratic (there are still plenty of little coal towns without a single registered Republican in them) but in an old fashioned way and one increasingly out of step with the national party.

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I think you'll find that Democrats do very well in most of Appalachia. Seen some maps of state legislatures? Gubernatorial races? Congressional races?

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No. But I don't recall John Kerry proposing anything that might help struggling families in declining industrial towns.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

My mom dates a guy from WV and I see him all the time, and he and his family (who still live in WV) are all loyal Democrats.  I really don't get the sense that West Virginans are voting on gay marriage and abortion.  Kerry was definetely viewed as soft on terrorism and national security and that hurt him a lot, but I think they would vote for any Democrat that spoke to what they care about economically, despite their state of origin or stance on gay marriage. 

[WalterMitty]

milkandcereal:  there are some bona fide liberal areas in the wv.

morgantown is infested with pinkos, huntington to a lesser extent.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here's a fun and pretty suprising fact: WV has the highest per-capita rate of strip clubs in the country. Wouldn't expect that from such a socially conservative state. Of course how many are top tier is a whole other issue...

This will be the most interesting state to watch in future elections, especially depending on who the Democrats nominate.

[WalterMitty]

it is not surprising, brtd.  white trashers are very much into seeing topless girl dance around a pole.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A lot of soliders and ex-soliders in WV. Old habits die hard so to speak

[minionofmidas]

it is not surprising, brtd.  white trashers are very much into seeing topless girl dance around a pole.

Aye, but their wives will give em hell afterwards.

[minionofmidas]

If you were a liberal, would you stay in West Virginia?

Perhaps. If you were a conservative, would you stay in West Virginia?

West Virginia's emigration patterns are fairly oneside, btw. It's Ohio, Ohio, Ohio, Maryland, Pennsylvania, the rest of the nation, Virginia, Kentucky, and Ohio.

[WalterMitty]

If you were a liberal, would you stay in West Virginia?

Perhaps. If you were a conservative, would you stay in West Virginia?

West Virginia's emigration patterns are fairly oneside, btw. It's Ohio, Ohio, Ohio, Maryland, Pennsylvania, the rest of the nation, Virginia, Kentucky, and Ohio.

not ot mention the fact that *normal* people dont live somewhere just because of the political leanings of the state.

[memphis]

An often overlooked reason for why West Virginia has moved into the Republican column in recent years

West Virginia hasn't moved anywhere, the main political issues and where voters stand on them are the same as they were in 1960; food (meant in an old sense of general economic and social assistence), flag, God (as far as religion goes, most of West Virginia has some very unusual patterns, but that's going off topic). The only change as far as the state goes has been depopulation in the older coalfields and some patchy suburban growth (these newish suburbs are much more blue collar than new suburbs pretty much anywhere else, btw) something evident with the slow but steady decline of the state's population and the number of Democrats (down from hovering around 70% in the '60's to hovering around 60%). It's hard to think of a state that's changed as little as West Virginia over a period of 45 years.
What's changed is the national Democratic Party.

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In the modern sense of what [American] liberal means, there aren't many in West Virginia and never have been. A lot of people who would have been described as "liberal" as recently as the '80's though.

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Why not?

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With the exceptions of a few pockets of post-1860 Republicanism (and there are several of these in West Virginia; mostly towards the Maryland border, but also the rural area behind Parkersburg) and some affluent (for the region anyway) suburbs, Appalachia is not Republican, especially not Central Appalachia. It's heavily Democratic (there are still plenty of little coal towns without a single registered Republican in them) but in an old fashioned way and one increasingly out of step with the national party.

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I think you'll find that Democrats do very well in most of Appalachia. Seen some maps of state legislatures? Gubernatorial races? Congressional races?

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No. But I don't recall John Kerry proposing anything that might help struggling families in declining industrial towns.

This thread is about presidential trends, and West Virginia has moved hugely to the Republicans in this sphere. WV voted for Dukakis in 1988, when he suffered a landslide defeat. The race was not even remotely competitive last year, when race nationally was very close.  I'll concede that the Dems have changed as well, giving up on economic issues for fear of the Republicans suggesting "class warfare" (whatever that means). I think that John Edwards was on to something big with his "two Americas" but although I don't think it was done very effectively. Having abandoned issues of class, we get social issues like abortion and gay marriage that are all a bunch of hot air. Anybody really think George Bush loses any sleep over gay marriage? Anybody think the national Republican Party wants to see abortion rights deferred to the states (something I think makes a lot of sense), thereby losing a rallying cry among many supporters who would otherwise vote Democratic?
Appalachia (East Tennessee, East Kentucky, West Virginia, West and Central Pennsylvania) is hugely Republican at the Presidential level.  A notable exceptions exist as in the Pittsburgh area, but it seems to be the exception that proves the rule.
I'm not sure about John Kerry suggesting anything that would help poor people, but I do recall Al Gore in 2000, suggesting a $10,000 income tax deduction to help pay for college. Having graduated in college in 2004, I know that my parents could have greatly used that money a few years back, although I wouldn't call my parents poor. John Kerry would have at least tried to repeal the cuts to upper income tax brackets so that my generation is not burdened with an outrageous national debt . Since tax rates are marginal, the wealthy would still get tax cuts, just not huge ones.  To those who say this would stifle economic development, I say look at what happenned after Clinton raised taxes on the wealthy in 1993. For that matter, look at the 1950s, when the US also saw unprecedented prosperity with the highest marginal rate over 90% (something I would certainly not personally endorse).
By the way, being a liberal, in today's sense of the word, I would probably leave West Virginia, were I from there (which I'm not) in search of a more sophisticated, urban environment, just as I would leave any small town/exurb. I think this pattern of self-selection helps to explain today's urban/rural divide. People have the option of choosing where they live like never before, with the result being recent Presidential maps like the ones we've had the past couple of elections.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This thread is about presidential trends, and West Virginia has moved hugely to the Republicans in this sphere.

No, no it hasn't. The national Democrats have moved away from West Virginia; the state has not "trended" anywhere.

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That result was a bit of a fluke actually; Dukakis managed to ride Caperton's coattails following the... er... "unpleasantness"... involving Arch Moore...

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West Virginia was close right up until the last few months

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Both parties have been just as bad as each other over that

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Actually Appalachia extends from northern Alabama up to Maine (Newfies et al as well, but let's not complicate things...) and the area is not hugely Republican at Presidential level. Some areas are and always have been; the rest (for the most part) doesn't like either party very much and as such is winnable by either party these days, it depends who the candidates are and what the issues are.

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That's because he didn't. He gave WV voters no reason to vote for him, then he as good as stuck two fingers up at them.

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Y'know, I don't think that most people in Appalachia care about the national debt, the deficit or whatever.

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I just don't think that's much of a factor anywhere, and especially not West Virginia. Unless Ohio is some sort of liberal haven.

[minionofmidas]

Well Cleveland is, sort of.

[© tweed]

No matter what the state of discussion is, Al refuses to use the word 'trend'.

[A18]

West Virginia is a revolting state. Possibly the worst in the union.

[Joe Republic]

West Virginia is a revolting state. Possibly the worst in the union.

You're forgetting Utah.

[memphis]

West Virginia is a revolting state. Possibly the worst in the union.

You're forgetting Utah.

While we're bashing individual states, I'll vote for Nevada as the most revolting. Lake Tahoe is really, really beautiful, but it cannot make up for the rest of the state.

[jokerman]

Thanks Al, you've said basically everything I would have said and saved me a rant on how far the Democratic Party has moved from where it was in 1948.

[Cashcow]

West Virginia is a revolting state. Possibly the worst in the union.

You're forgetting Utah.

While we're bashing individual states, I'll vote for Nevada as the most revolting. Lake Tahoe is really, really beautiful, but it cannot make up for the rest of the state.

I vote for Delaware.  It is definately the most irritating, hideous, boring, and idiotic state of all time.

Why don't you go f**k Ruth Ann Minner, you North Jersey scumbag?

[A18]

Nevada is an excellent state. It doesn't even have an income tax, and the weather is decent.

[© tweed]

Nevada is an excellent state. It doesn't even have an income tax, and the weather is decent.

It's very hot or very cold most of the time.  No water to provide insulation.

[minionofmidas]

West Virginia is a revolting state. Possibly the worst in the union.

No. West Virginia is a revolving state.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Thanks Al, you've said basically everything I would have said and saved me a rant on how far the Democratic Party has moved from where it was in 1948.

God, that was 57 years ago, I hope they've changed