HuffPo: UNC Students Topple Confederate Monument

[Brittain33]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

[ProudModerate2]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

[fhtagn]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

[ProudModerate2]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

[Devout Centrist]

Because the erasing of history makes us doomed to repeat it.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about. They took down the Confederate monument in my hometown last year and I've forgotten what this "Civil War" was.

A ‘civil’ war? Surely you mean a debate in the free marketplace of ideas?

[fhtagn]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

We didn't win the Vietnam War but we still have a memorial for fallen soldiers and those who went missing in action.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

We didn't win the Vietnam War but we still have a memorial for fallen soldiers and those who went missing in action.

We also "lost" Korea considering the war ended in an ongoing stalemate.

[fhtagn]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

[IndustrialJustice]

It's great how the conservatives continue to play coy as to what purpose these statues really served. This really isn't that difficult, guys.

Again, these statues popped up in Arizona. Arizona.

[ProudModerate2]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

My apologies to Ms KnowItAll, WhatISayMattersMore, Ex-Atlas-president.
I bow to your greatness that you know "what matters in this context."

And just in case you haven't noticed ... your puffed up, big-head is on display once again. Your true pompous, arrogant attitude, is out there for everyone to see.
Some things never change.

[fhtagn]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

My apologies to Ms KnowItAll, WhatISayMattersMore, Ex-Atlas-president.
I bow to your greatness that you know "what matters in this context."

And just in case you haven't noticed ... your puffed up, big-head is on display once again. Your true pompous, arrogant attitude, is out there for everyone to see.
Some things never change.

I suggest looking in the mirror before saying that next time.
All I did was point out why you were wrong. If you can't handle that, I suggest taking some time off for a breather, maybe go get laid or something. 

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Were the Sons of Liberty wrong when they threw the tea in Boston Harbour?

[Tartarus Sauce]

This is pretty much exactly the type of response you can expect when formal avenues of resolution have been shut off by a higher authority. The people and institution hosting the statue and shouldering its costs haven’t wanted it for a long time but can’t relocate it due to laws preventing it from being moved or otherwise altered. Civil disobedience became the only means of reaching their preferred outcome.

This whole situation is exemplary of how important narrative crafting is in how we morally frame the world around us. That doesn’t just refer to the Lost Casue myth either, but also how we view acts of civil disobedience. The civil rights movement of the 60s required wholesale disobedience towards a regime of oppressive racial laws, and reactionary Whites in the South as well as nationwide looked on in disgust at these supposed lawless thugs. Now we enshrine their civil disobedience in our national mythos, much as we have the Boston Tea Party, or the colonists who tore down the statue of King George III in New York the day the Declaration of Independence was first announced publicly within the city.

Is what the students did with this statue vandalism? Yes. Is it illegal? Yes. It’s also true though that those most outraged are outsiders. Not the students who had to deal with it every day, they decided to tear it down, nor the institution who was hosting it, most of the faculty are likely quietly relieved it’s gone. As the issue of Confederate monuments has becone an increasingly polarizing subject, this increasingly describes the dynamic at play nationwide. People outside the jurisdictions hosting and paying for the monuments in question are demanding reactionary legislatures to take an increasingly hard tack on the matter. Notice the calls by some already in this thread to rebuild the statue on the same grounds and post armed guards.

If there is any truth to the idea of there being significant overlap between those who support Confederate monuments and those who claim to support local control, recognize that the vast majority of these monuments would be relocated off public grounds, placed in indefinite storage, or scrapped if the actual local bodies responsible for the management of these statues were legally allowed to have their say. If such a reality bothers you that much, the proper response would be to offer to buy it off the hands of the municipalities. Start a non-profit, contribute to an existing one or whatever suits your needs to pool the necessary resources. The worst response is contiung to expect others who would wish otherwise to promote your preferred narrative at their own expense.

The latter has been the response of the state legislatures with the exception of Maryland who decided they didn’t care. The rest became even more restrictive in the ability of the localities to dictate what happens to Confederate monuments. Those most supportive of the statues, mostly located outside the municipalities in question, have reacted with such heated fury even to the times that cities have managed to legally remove the statues that the reaction it generated from them was virtually identical to the reactions to actual vandalism and defacement.

If these are the types of reactions we can continue to expect from draconian state legislatures and the pro-Confederate monuments crowd, expect a lot more vandalism, defacement, and outright destruction of the monuments from those being forced to host them. Civil disobedience will be their only tool left.

[Devout Centrist]

I cannot emphasize, in any greater terms, the importance of maintaining a stable and upright environment in which the people can clearly and plainly, in an unobscured manner, view landmarks, statues, statuettes, and other icons that remind them of that concept most dear: the past, history, what came before them. For now, all over the world, the adverse effect of tearing down monuments of so-called 'bad people'.

For without these landmarks, in plain public view of all parties in the locality where they exist, people will proceed to have rapid onset amnesia, at which point they will forget the lessons of previous historical events and narratives. They will then commit the same mistakes as their forefathers immediately. How can people remember the folly of such men as George Fitzhugh or of Francis Preston Blair? They will be relegated to the dustbin of history, forever forgotten, and their names will never be honored by their ungrateful beneficiaries.

We have seen this very effect on other nations of the world. The people of Soviet Russia torn down statues of the Tsar, and their descendants torn down statues of the great General Secretary Stalin. Such history forgotten! The Germans, once a proud people, have forgotten their entire history when their statues were toppled, repeatedly, by impertinent Americans. In the Dominican Republic, statues of the great man known as Generalissimo Rafael Leónidas Trujillo Molina, have been torn down and the nation, oh their nation, has faltered into depression and ignorance as a result.

Meanwhile, the countries of the world that have hitherto kept these symbolic national symbols have, in every case, grown stronger and more prosperous with every passing day. The people of the glorious Democratic People's Republic of Korea have a firm and insightful understanding OF THEIR OWN HISTORY because of the numerous landmarks, statues, and statuettes, that clearly and plainly display their past leaders, Eternal President Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-Il. They will carry that knowledge forward into the future as a result.

And let us also not forget that these so-called 'traitors' were people, too. They had families, children, hopes, and dreams. Slavery, which was debatably the same as Russian serfdom and definitely no more worse than that system of economic engagement, occurred in a time where it was morally acceptable. Therefore, these men deserve, nay, NEED monuments to their heroic sacrifice. With luck, the ideals, the beliefs, and the system that they fought for, will not have been in vain. One day perhaps, Americans will reflect on their history and understand why such beliefs were so noble.

[ProudModerate2]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

My apologies to Ms KnowItAll, WhatISayMattersMore, Ex-Atlas-president.
I bow to your greatness that you know "what matters in this context."

And just in case you haven't noticed ... your puffed up, big-head is on display once again. Your true pompous, arrogant attitude, is out there for everyone to see.
Some things never change.

I suggest looking in the mirror before saying that next time.
All I did was point out why you were wrong. If you can't handle that, I suggest taking some time off for a breather, maybe go get laid or something. 

LOL.
"All I did was point out why you were wrong."
Still more self-centered, stuck-up attitude (and conclusions), and fhtagn doesn't see it (which is a common theme for individuals who believe they are high-and-mighty).
Come to your senses. I think it's time for you to get out your plastic "Mr Dependable" and turn it up to high speed.

[Beet]

Were the Sons of Liberty wrong when they threw the tea in Boston Harbour?

Not necessarily. They became right when they initiated a revolution and won. If they had lost, the verdict of history on this act would have been very different. Unpleasant to admit, but true. The difference is that if liberals want to initiate a revolution today, they would lose. You may win the battle of this statue, but the harder you push on race, the harder the backlash will eventually be.

[fhtagn]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

My apologies to Ms KnowItAll, WhatISayMattersMore, Ex-Atlas-president.
I bow to your greatness that you know "what matters in this context."

And just in case you haven't noticed ... your puffed up, big-head is on display once again. Your true pompous, arrogant attitude, is out there for everyone to see.
Some things never change.

I suggest looking in the mirror before saying that next time.
All I did was point out why you were wrong. If you can't handle that, I suggest taking some time off for a breather, maybe go get laid or something. 

LOL.
"All I did was point out why you were wrong."
Still more self-centered, stuck-up attitude (and conclusions), and fhtagn doesn't see it (which is a common theme for individuals who believe they are high-and-mighty).
Come to your senses. I think it's time for you to get out your plastic "Mr Dependable" and turn it up to high speed.

I suggest doing yourself a favor and stop posting until you have something even remotely intelligent and valuable to add to the conversation.  I know that's hard for you to do, but it's painfully obvious you aren't even trying.

[ProudModerate2]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

My apologies to Ms KnowItAll, WhatISayMattersMore, Ex-Atlas-president.
I bow to your greatness that you know "what matters in this context."

And just in case you haven't noticed ... your puffed up, big-head is on display once again. Your true pompous, arrogant attitude, is out there for everyone to see.
Some things never change.

I suggest looking in the mirror before saying that next time.
All I did was point out why you were wrong. If you can't handle that, I suggest taking some time off for a breather, maybe go get laid or something. 

LOL.
"All I did was point out why you were wrong."
Still more self-centered, stuck-up attitude (and conclusions), and fhtagn doesn't see it (which is a common theme for individuals who believe they are high-and-mighty).
Come to your senses. I think it's time for you to get out your plastic "Mr Dependable" and turn it up to high speed.

I suggest doing yourself a favor and stop posting until you have something even remotely intelligent and valuable to add to the conversation.  I know that's hard for you to do, but it's painfully obvious you aren't even trying.

Sorry that pointing-out who you truly are, hurts you.

[Badger]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

You mean the USC written by a post-reconstruction Congress chock-full of, and for a number of decades dominated by, those same white supremacists traitors and their families / supporters?

The fact of the lost cause adherents had enough political clout to get veteran benefits for Confederate soldiers makes it absolutely no more moral or correct in the fact it's adherents today have enough political clout to Force monuments to stand in communities drastically opposed to its racist and traitorous memory.

[IceSpear]

If you guys ever get tired of arguing with fhtagn, just wait a week until she becomes a communist and agrees with you.

[Badger]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

We didn't win the Vietnam War but we still have a memorial for fallen soldiers and those who went missing in action.

We also "lost" Korea considering the war ended in an ongoing stalemate.

Nah. We save South Korea. 98% of their Nation would disagree that the war was a loss. MacArthur screwed up by not stopping a bit north of Pyongyang and triggering the Chinese Counterattack, but still a victory.

[Beet]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

We didn't win the Vietnam War but we still have a memorial for fallen soldiers and those who went missing in action.

We also "lost" Korea considering the war ended in an ongoing stalemate.

Nah. We save South Korea. 98% of their Nation would disagree that the war was a loss. MacArthur screwed up by not stopping a bit north of Pyongyang and triggering the Chinese Counterattack, but still a victory.

To be fair, we don't really know what Korea would look like if it had been unified. Its politics may have ended up very differently, and it could be more like Vietnam today - an authoritarian market state under one government, with a median income similar to China's, and no nuclear crisis - which some South Koreans would find preferable to the status quo. You can't really say what the alternative would be after so long.

[Badger]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

We didn't win the Vietnam War but we still have a memorial for fallen soldiers and those who went missing in action.

We also "lost" Korea considering the war ended in an ongoing stalemate.

Nah. We save South Korea. 98% of their Nation would disagree that the war was a loss. MacArthur screwed up by not stopping a bit north of Pyongyang and triggering the Chinese Counterattack, but still a victory.

To be fair, we don't really know what Korea would look like if it had been unified. Its politics may have ended up very differently, and it could be more like Vietnam today - an authoritarian market state under one government, with a median income similar to China's, and no nuclear crisis - which some South Koreans would find preferable to the status quo. You can't really say what the alternative would be after so long.

There is absolutely zero indication under the sun that the entire Korean Peninsula United under the Kim's would be any different then North Korea is today, let alone and at least minutely evolving or authoritarian regime like Vietnam. Literally none. That's Abraham Lincoln Vampire killer level fantasy.

[Beet]

FYI, the base is still there, but the statue is gone.

In terms of comparing Malcolm X to Silent Sam. Malcolm X statue was put up despite his hatred of Jews, not because of it. Silent Sam was put up in 1913 at the height of white supremacy to send that message. If it was done to honor Confederate dead, it would have been erected soon after the end of the Civil War.

That logic is ridiculous. Since when is there be a requirement on how long after a war memorials can be erected?

For example, the World War II Memorial wasn't opened until 2004, which is a much longer time frame than it was for Silent Sam to be erected following the end of the Civil War.

Yes, but America *won* World War II.

We didn't win the Vietnam War but we still have a memorial for fallen soldiers and those who went missing in action.

We also "lost" Korea considering the war ended in an ongoing stalemate.

Nah. We save South Korea. 98% of their Nation would disagree that the war was a loss. MacArthur screwed up by not stopping a bit north of Pyongyang and triggering the Chinese Counterattack, but still a victory.

To be fair, we don't really know what Korea would look like if it had been unified. Its politics may have ended up very differently, and it could be more like Vietnam today - an authoritarian market state under one government, with a median income similar to China's, and no nuclear crisis - which some South Koreans would find preferable to the status quo. You can't really say what the alternative would be after so long.

There is absolutely zero indication under the sun that the entire Korean Peninsula United under the Kim's would be any different then North Korea is today, let alone and at least minutely evolving or authoritarian regime like Vietnam. Literally none. That's Abraham Lincoln Vampire killer level fantasy.

What's the meaning of an "indication" for something extrapolated from the birth of a country forward by 70 years? The point is you can't say with any certainty that a united Korean Peninsula would be what it is today, with Kim Jong Un in power, and the exact same policies in place. Everything about it would be different. Korea's entire strategic calculus would have been different. The entire siege mentality that North Korea has where it needs nuclear weapons in the first place wouldn't exist.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

You cannot compare the soldiers of the Confederacy, to soldiers of the Vietnam War or WWII.
Soldiers of Vietnam or WWII represented the United States of America.
Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were rebels and traitors to our nation. They represented a thuggish State that wanted to continue the inhumane and Deplorable practice of enslaving other human beings.

Per US Code, Confederate veterans are US Veterans.
Sorry buddy, better luck next time.

Did I say anything about "code" or "US Veterans?"
No, I did not.
I said that they did not represent The United States of America.
So, sorry, but try a little harder next time.

US Code is all that matters in this context. Your precious feelings (or the feelings of anyone else, for that matter) on whether or not they should be compared to veterans of any other war are irrelevant. They're US Veterans, just like those who fought in every other war we have been involved in.

My apologies to Ms KnowItAll, WhatISayMattersMore, Ex-Atlas-president.
I bow to your greatness that you know "what matters in this context."

And just in case you haven't noticed ... your puffed up, big-head is on display once again. Your true pompous, arrogant attitude, is out there for everyone to see.
Some things never change.

You shouldn't abuse a woman of color like that, you racist pig.