What is it to be "American" these days?

[MODU]

This is a random "rant" thread, and I apologize in advance.  Rarely do I initiate a rant, but someone sent me a message this morning, and it has really got me thinking/grumbling.

Today's rant is:  What is the language of the United States?

As it technically stands, the US does not have a national language on the books.  While we have all accepted that English is our national language, stemming all the way back to when we broke away from our European ties, it has never been put down in writing.  However, this has implied that everyone moving to the US for two centuries had to learn how to speak English.  But for some reason over the past few decades, we have been allowing this requirement to slip, creating situations where we now have to have bilingual roadsigns, forms, and even cashiers wherever we go.  And while knowing a second language is not a bad thing, we need to standardize the system so everyone can communicate to each other clearly.  My ancestors had to learn English.  My friends from the far East all knew English before moving here.  So why do we have a double standard when it comes to Spanish or Portuguese?  Just because politicians on both sides of the aisle lack the spine to secure our borders at the risk of losing some votes?  Come on folks.

It's time we pass legislation requiring all citizens here to know and speak English.  Additionally, any foreign resident who is here for more than a year needs to be able to speak English as well.  The requirement would be the same against us if we moved to a foreign country, so why haven't we enforced it here?  Why do we have to bend over backwards for the foreigners?

(End of today's rant.  Discuss/flame as needed.)

[KillerPollo]

I learned English In Mexico. and I use it here in the US. What do you think this (what I just posted) is in?

[angus]

what is it to be an "american" these days?

Paying strangers to raise your children and paying strangers to hang out with your parents when they become to old and smelly for your tastes.  Just be sure to call it "daycare" and "nursing" so no one gets offended.  And I think these two factoids explain the huge generational gaps in the US and other OECD countries, as well as a host of social and societal problems.

but then the title wasn't really related to the rest of the rant was it?  The rant was about national language, or our lack thereof.  I have to say I'm not with the Republicans on this one.  I firmly believe that it is not culturally and economically beneficial to be unable to communicate with folks who do not speak your native language.  and I also believe that forcing every legal document, passport, driver's license examination, and ballot into english, and furthermore requiring all resident aliens to learn the language as a condition of continued residence is the surest way to ensure that insular condition whereby we are at an even greater disconnect with the rest of the world.  To truly understand Spain's pullout from the "coalition of the willing" after its train attack, one must speak fluent spanish, or at least proficient spanish.  So many US people and Englanders scratch their heads over this reversal, as most english-speaking people would have reacted oppositely.  We forget that the word is the skin of a living thought, and the way words are grouped and chosen not only reflect a culture, but create a culture since languages are imposed upon us by our parents.  Voter participation among chinese-americans, for example, is appallingly low, and would no doubt increase if third- and fourth-generation chinese-americans in places like San Francisco actually claimed English, the language of Locke and Jefferson, as their native tongues, but then just as surely as voter participation would increase, so many other facets of their ancient and wise culture would disappear.  The Canadian ideal is the "cultural mosaic" whereas the US ideal is the "melting pot"  The truth is, neither of these countries has reached its ideal state, and both are somewhere in-between the two, and that's not a bad place to be, really.  I'm all for teaching Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, and all the rest English, but I'm just as certain that it's a good idea to make their White Anglo-Saxon Protestant playmates learn Spanish.  The ideal american isn't white, or black, or brown, or red, or yellow.  Nor is he of German, Italian, Polish, or Korean descent.  He's beyond such considerations.  Of course, such considerations are as yet important and thus we haven't reached an ideal state.  But my ideal state certainly isn't one in which we are so cut off from the rest of the world culturally and intellectually that the only way to sell our ideas is with tanks and bullets.

[Emsworth]

It's time we pass legislation requiring all citizens here to know and speak English.

I don't mind printing government documents in English alone. I don't mind educating students in English alone. But to require citizens to speak English strikes me as totalitarian. Shall someone who doesn't speak English be imprisoned? Should cops walk around the streets, ticketing anyone who isn't speaking the national language?

[MODU]

Should cops walk around the streets, ticketing anyone who isn't speaking the national language?

hahaha . . . no, but we should not make exceptions for them either.  If I were to go overseas, I would have to learn the language of that country.  I can't go to Japan and rely on English.  I can't go to India and rely on English.  I can't go to Egypt and rely on English.  So people coming here from outside the US need to learn English and not rely on their native language.  This is part of our national identity; our culture.  While we except pretty much anyone into our country, it's not too much to ask for something in return, such as to learn our language? 

And I don't mean to come across as rude or stubborn, but seriously.  In another thread, we had to choose which country we would move to if for some reason we were booted out of the US.  I chose Singapore.  And while they do speak English over there in some parts, Chinese is the dominant language.  So, before I go over there, I should have a working knowledge of the language in order to live/adapt/survive.  I don't see why we can't have the same expectations over here.

(And yes Killer, I can read your posts.    I hope you know I don't mean this as a personal attack on Mexican's or anything.)

[Emsworth]

This is part of our national identity; our culture.  While we except pretty much anyone into our country, it's not too much to ask for something in return, such as to learn our language?

It may be rude or disrespectful not to learn a particular language. But it should not be illegal. If anyone in this country chooses to speak Spanish instead of English, that is his prerogative: he should not be compelled by the force of law to do anything else. As I said, I don't mind educating people in only English, or printing all government documents in only English, or the like. But requiring every person to actually speak a particular language is too extreme.

I don't mean to exaggerate, but when I contemplate the concept of the government determining what language the people are allowed to speak, I am reminded of Orwell's 1984...

[angus]

actually, whenever you meet a group of Indians it is usually the case that the only common language they have is English.  so yes you can pretty much get by on English in India.  and to a great extent in Egypt.  But no not Japan.  In fact, japan's an interesting and peculiar example, as it is one of the few OECD countries, maybe the only ones, in which society is even more reticent that the USA is to learn other languages, and is one of the few OECD countries wherein fewer school-age children speak a second language than in the USA.  and it is a great source of frustration for them, according to the few japanese I have spoken with about it.  Yes, it's a bit rude not to learn the language of the country you're going to visit, I agree.  But that's easy to say when "visiting" a country means going on line from the comfort of your living room, purchasing an airline ticket with your mastercard, and taking a flight to a hotel where you'll be picked up by a taxi and dropped off at a five-star hotel.  Is it easy to say that it's rude not to first learn english when "visiting" means you have paid a smuggler fifty thousand rembi yuen to sneak you aboard a container vessel on a ship bound for the port of Oakland and you spend the next four weeks living in your filth and having only rice and water to drink.  You have to open your mind as well, is what I'm saying.  Asking others to open their minds and glimpse into your culture is an honorable thing.  An even greater honor is to open your own mind and glimpse into theirs.  Especially when we're going to claim to be the beacon of "freedom" and "democracy" and spread our form of democratic capitalism by airwave, tourism, and, if necessary, by force.

okay, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but you have to know that this whole "If they could only appreciate the intrinsic benevolence of the white man's culture then they'd be with us" shtick ought to have played itself out last century.  And the refusal to learn any other language is a form of that elitism.  Or arrogance.  And the insistence to force everyone to learn a language that didn't even evolve here but rather thousands of miles away is just as arrogant.  In that sense, we're even worse than Japan, because at least they have the excuse that Japanese is THEIR language and it evolved there.  We don't have any such claim.  Ours is a nation fundamentally different in that regard, and our culture, we so dearly claim, is a melting pot of all of them.  "Give me your poor your tired your huddled masses, just make sure they know how to subjugate themselves to the WASP way."  That's just so nineteenth century, don't you think?

[MODU]

"Give me your poor your tired your huddled masses, just make sure they know how to subjugate themselves to the WASP way."  That's just so nineteenth century, don't you think?

That's taking it to extreme, but no, it's not.  (And when I talk about going to a foreign country, I'm referring to at least a year in time, not a one-week trip.)  If you go back up to what I initially said, there is nothing wrong with knowing a second language.  The problem with the US is that there are so many foreign languages out there for us to learn since English is the predominant language between countries, at least in a business sense.  In most schools, students here have a choice between Latin (no longer spoken), German (not too commonly used outside of the German state), French (spoken in countries on three continents), and Spanish (also spoken in countries on the continents).  And while English is not a native language to North America, it is the native language to the country of the USA.  We can't go back in time to slap the original settlers to North America and say, "Hey, you need to learn to speak Seminole" or something.  Now, if for some reason French was the dominant global language, I would expect those in the US to learn English as their national language, and then promote French as their secondary language since that is what they would need to know to communicate globally. 

And to go back (I'm merging the last two responses together), it's not crime to not know English, even if English were the national language.  Not too sure where that is coming from.  However, if English were the national language, it would be required for people to know it in order to survive.  I don't know why people want to establish such a double standard on this.  "It's ok you can't speak English.  We'll find you a nice job somewhere so you can only speak your native language, and we'll make sure we spend more money to meet your special needs by getting all of the documentation required for the job translated, blah blah blah." 

There is no excuse to be living in this country without knowing English, even if you are a refugee from another country.  If you come here legally under political distress, we can provide classes for you to take upon stepping foot on our shores.  However, in all other cases, those legally moving to the US from foreign countries must know how to speak basic English upon entering.  Illegal immigrants don't have to worry about learning English, since hopefully we'll get our act together and start actively deporting them. 

This will in no way hurt our "melting pot" society, but rather help it.  People will be better capable of sharing their thoughts and views with each other when they speak a common language.  They will be better capable to integrate into our society, sharing their knowledge and skills to those around them.  This isn't unreasonable nor elitist. 

[angus]

Actually, to put a different spin on your argument, we're lucky here in the Western Hemisphere in the sense that we only need to learn two languages to get around all over the hemisphere.  (yeah, I know there are smaller pockets of portuguese, french, nederlandse, and dane, along with a few indigenous tongues), but it's true that with those two languages you can travel the Americas from Great Slave Lake north of the Arctic Circle to Ushuaia at the opposite polar region.  Think about those folks in Asia, Africa, and Europe that would have to learn dozens of languages to travel from pole to pole.  In fact, I have often heard, while sitting in second-class busses while traveling in third-world countries in the Americas a young person tell me, "Yo quisiera aprender ingles, porque si podria aprender ingles, seria rico!"  Well, I'd say, maybe "mas oportunidades economicas" to be more accurate.  and they'd say that's what they meant.  And I'd say the same thing to a young anglophone as well.  Learn just those two, and you're already able to wander about the entire western hemisphere, pretty much.  So, don't assume that Guatemalans, Hondurans, Peruvians, and the rest don't appreciate that.  In fact, it is my distinct impression that they appreciate that learning those two languages is economically important *much more* than most gringos with whom I've discussed the subject.  That was one minor point. 

I agree that if English were the national language, you'd need to know it to survive.  That's not at issue.  And I understand the cost to society of having to print everything in several languages.  In fact, when I lived in Somerville, MA (a city of immigrants, very blue collar) every important notice we got from the phone company, electric company, etc., came in about eight languages.  Those costs get passed on to the consumer, I realize.  But I see this condition as an advantage, not a disadvantage, and one that can and should be cultivated.  I thought I'd made that clear.  Anyway, I think our principal agreement here isn't that you're an elitist wasp snob and I'm a confused bleeding heart cokehead.  I think it's much more simple:  you see the diversity as a disadvantage and I see it as an advantage.  So let's argue that point.  I'll start.  (see also above)  If we really want to push our form of democratic capitalism on the world (and that's another worthy debate, but for the sake of argument here I'll say that it seems that we do) then it makes sense to have as much understanding of that world as we possibly can, and not purposefully make ourselves ignorant of that world by snuffing out all other cultures and replacing it with an anglophile vision of what's what.

[Citizen James]

What happens in Puerto Rico (the Spanish speaking American protecterate)?

I agree, that simply out of matters of practicallity, people who move here should learn English.  But that takes time, and even intense classwork will only move you along so fast.  In most cases, it takes 5-7 years of work to reach true fluency.   In the meantime, I think the people who put in the effort should at least be given the respect they deserve for their hard work - English is a difficult language.  Having some translations of more common but complex documents would be helpful for those who are making an honest effort but simply haven't gotten there yet.

Our founding fathers actually considered making German or French the offical language (Though they spoke English, they hated England), but decided to have no official language in the end and just let each region use whatever language happened to work for them. 

[Emsworth]

Though they spoke English, they hated England

That is hardly true, I believe. They believed that the King and Parliament had denied them the "rights of Englishmen," not that the country England was bad or evil. They had no particular hatred of the "mother country," just of its government.

[MaC]

You aren't really American unless you assimilate and learn English. 

[Alcon]

You aren't really American unless you assimilate and learn English. 

Why?

[KillerPollo]

You aren't really American unless you assimilate and learn English. 

Why?

He's saying that to piss me off. It won't work!

I'm too busy dancing to this to get pissed.

[MaC]

You aren't really American unless you assimilate and learn English. 

Why?

How do you consider yourself to be American if you don't know one of the most basic things about being an American?  It's more or less a trait that all Americans have-speaking English.
 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Our founding fathers actually considered making German or French the offical language (Though they spoke English, they hated England)

Not that myth again...

[MasterJedi]

The national language should be English for business/school those sort of purposes. But in homes and on the streets it can be anything you want.

[The Constitarian]

     I agree that there is no cause for legislation to be passed to make a language.  I think if we just go back to when english was the only one you ever saw on signs,instructions, and all those other things we use everyday then foreigners and immigrants will learn to adapt.

[KillerPollo]

The national language should be English for business/school those sort of purposes. But in homes and on the streets it can be anything you want.

Yes I agree. But on former mexican Land, it should be bilingual.

[opebo]

Americanism = ennui and workaholism unassuaged by materialism and gluttony.  In other words miserable, dissatisfied, overworked fat people.

What causes all this you ask?  I suppose puritanism and religion..

[MaC]

The national language should be English for business/school those sort of purposes. But in homes and on the streets it can be anything you want.

Yes I agree. But on former mexican Land, it should be bilingual.

Why should it be bilingual?
You came here, you learn our language, bitch.

[KillerPollo]

The national language should be English for business/school those sort of purposes. But in homes and on the streets it can be anything you want.

Yes I agree. But on former mexican Land, it should be bilingual.

Why should it be bilingual?
You came here, you learn our language, bitch.

um... NO!!! Because the southwest once belonged to another country with a totally differnt culture and language, and even measurement system. Look at Quebec in Canada, and see that it is fairly effective. You can't do a border-intelligent language barrier.
---
You can keep the metric system out of the southwest (meaning you will not see a SINGLE post in Km's or Liters until you get to Mexico itself), but you can do nothing about the Spanish presence in there.

I might as well post this in Spanish. Oh yeahh... I'm being thoughtful, because you actually understood what you just read. WHY? cause it's in English. yeeeah, that's why! so why are you blatantly telling me to learn? I learned it anyways before I came here (because, like in Germany, it's MANDATORY in Mexico), so there was no way an ignorant yank (obvoiuusly NOT you, MaC, not an ad hominem) could have told me to learn while treading on "American" soil.

[MaC]

The national language should be English for business/school those sort of purposes. But in homes and on the streets it can be anything you want.

Yes I agree. But on former mexican Land, it should be bilingual.

Why should it be bilingual?
You came here, you learn our language, bitch.

um... NO!!! Because the southwest once belonged to another country with a totally differnt culture and language, and even measurement system. Look at Quebec in Canada, and see that it is fairly effective. You can't do a border-intelligent language barrier.
---
You can keep the metric system out of the southwest, but you can do nothing about the Spanish presence in there.

Just try and get the southwest back.  Take your sword, convert all the states back to Mexican jurisdiction.  I dare you.  Oh, and there are still so many of us decent white folk who will never give up white culture to go Mexican or God-forbid join than Marxist measuring system.

[KillerPollo]

The national language should be English for business/school those sort of purposes. But in homes and on the streets it can be anything you want.

Yes I agree. But on former mexican Land, it should be bilingual.

Why should it be bilingual?
You came here, you learn our language, bitch.

um... NO!!! Because the southwest once belonged to another country with a totally differnt culture and language, and even measurement system. Look at Quebec in Canada, and see that it is fairly effective. You can't do a border-intelligent language barrier.
---
You can keep the metric system out of the southwest, but you can do nothing about the Spanish presence in there.

Just try and get the southwest back.  Take your sword, convert all the states back to Mexican jurisdiction.  I dare you.  Oh, and there are still so many of us decent white folk who will never give up white culture to go Mexican or God-forbid join than Marxist measuring system.

White is just a colour, not a culture. If you mean more the Anglo-Saxon culture, or race, then it would have made more sense. Well, Not just whites wouldn't like that. I don't think Blacks living in Compton, CA would like to become part of Mexico anyways either.

You really think I'd try to get the southwest back by force? ARE YOU INSANE? Maybe through diplomacy, but NEVER a war.

btw, We'll not make you use metric... Just SI units

[MaC]

  If nobody's gonna listen to you when you start a war, what the hell makes you think they'll listen to diplomacy? 

Oh, Mr. Richardson, Mrs. Napolitano, could you please give your states back to Mexico?  We'd like it if you gave them back.