Opinion of the LGBTQ strike in Israel

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have no issues with anyone consenting to do any of those things for pay. ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

[America Needs R'hllor]

I have no issues with anyone consenting to do any of those things for pay. ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

I believe that there's a difference between the two issues.
Imo, prostitution is wrong because it basically forces a woman to have sexual intercourse with a man she doesn't desire- yes, it's technically consent, but almost always comes out of desperation, so it's not really freedom. I think there's clearly a reason, for example, that we penalize rape as one of the worst crimes- sex is something deep that, if forced, can be extremely traumatizing. And that's amplified with how terrible that whole industry is.

Meanwhile, I don't view giving birth as similar. The woman merely rents her womb- she usually doesn't even provide the egg. Personally, I don't see any problem with it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Alright, so I've just read a Facebook post of an Israeli surrogate mother. The short version is, it's a heavily regulated process in our country, with psychological checks, medical and legal advice, a myriad of checks and double checks with professionals to make sure the risks are minimal and be certain that the surrogate is fully aware of everything and is not in it just because she needs the money. It's definitely a clean process that prevents exploitation, unlike in third world countries.

So, I ask everyone who voiced opposition to any law allowing surrogacy in Israel, to gay people or generally- what do you think about that? Wouldn't you rather Israeli couples go for this process rather than search for their parenthood in another country, where it might be less ideal than here? Mostly directing this to Averroës and DC Al Fine, who implied that it's good that the law doesn't include gay couples becasue it restricts surrogacy for at least *someone*. But also to anyone else

[Torie]

I don't have a problem with surrogacy at all, but yeah, it seems in Israel the process is appropriately regulated.

[Indy Texas]

Before I read the thread, I had an image in my head of an all-LGBTQ division of the Israeli military launching an airstrike against Gaza or something.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

If a woman has problem giving birth in her own what's wrong with paying someone to do it? If someone doesn't have a car they can pay someone to drive them with Uber and Lyft. Same principle.

I think the problem (and I'm not necessarily opposing it here) is that surrogacy could have some unfortunate implications due to the power imbalance. Let's say surrogacy becomes popular amongst the infertile, gay men and even women who simply don't want to go through the unpleasant nature of pregnancy (which as much as we romanticise it, is a huge burden on a woman's health and life with lingering aesthetic effects afterwards). This would largely be service for the rich, and for the most part would be done for the poor, because of the aforementioned investment required would not be desirable for most. This presents a lot of problems: let's say you're a poor woman in a poor country, and a rich couple from the West ask you to carry their baby with an amount of money that could help your family survive and maybe educate a few of your siblings as well: you'd be immensely pressured to take up the offer. Extending it further, what if it is just "the done thing" amongst the elite to avoid the lingering burdens and lasting stretch marks of pregnancy and just as a matter of course pay for surrogates; and what if it's the done thing for all poor women with no other options to automatically go into the easiest option? At the very least, people should be informed that surrogacy is not an easy source of cash.

There are several horror stories (off the top of my head, one particularly disgusting one was an Australian couple who realised that one of their surrogate twins had Downs, and so abandoned him in Thailand and asked for a refund (?) ) but that might be solved via regulation.

[America Needs R'hllor]

If a woman has problem giving birth in her own what's wrong with paying someone to do it? If someone doesn't have a car they can pay someone to drive them with Uber and Lyft. Same principle.

I think the problem (and I'm not necessarily opposing it here) is that surrogacy could have some unfortunate implications due to the power imbalance. Let's say surrogacy becomes popular amongst the infertile, gay men and even women who simply don't want to go through the unpleasant nature of pregnancy (which as much as we romanticise it, is a huge burden on a woman's health and life with lingering aesthetic effects afterwards). This would largely be service for the rich, and for the most part would be done for the poor, because of the aforementioned investment required would not be desirable for most. This presents a lot of problems: let's say you're a poor woman in a poor country, and a rich couple from the West ask you to carry their baby with an amount of money that could help your family survive and maybe educate a few of your siblings as well: you'd be immensely pressured to take up the offer. Extending it further, what if it is just "the done thing" amongst the elite to avoid the lingering burdens and lasting stretch marks of pregnancy and just as a matter of course pay for surrogates; and what if it's the done thing for all poor women with no other options to automatically go into the easiest option? At the very least, people should be informed that surrogacy is not an easy source of cash.

There are several horror stories (off the top of my head, one particularly disgusting one was an Australian couple who realised that one of their surrogate twins had Downs, and so abandoned him in Thailand and asked for a refund (?) ) but that might be solved via regulation.

You're right- the poorly regulated surrogacy in developing countries is a problem. But from what I've read, many of the surrogate mothers in Israel aren't even poor. There's extensive and effective regulation that protects, before anything else, the surrogate, and makes sure she's not treated as inferior.

Second, surrogacy is not only for wealthy couples. Not at all. There are many couples who save money for this purpose, just like others save money to buy a home. The desire to be a parent is deep and strong both for the rich and the poor. I can assure you that I'm not rich, but I still hope to someday get a child for me and my future partner with a surrogacy process, and that I'll be able to do it here in my own country so that I can meet the woman personally, be there with her for all of these months and make sure she's fine.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

You're right there (and an interesting argument would be that legalising such practices in the west would eliminate the much much more problematic practice in the developing world). Ultimately personal autonomy should win out in the end: if someone has a desire to carry a baby for someone else, they shouldn't be stopped (incidentally in my country surrogacy is legal but only "altruistic" surrogacy, which kind of carries its own odd little debates), but I hope regulation is sufficient that there isn't a wild west of womb renting.

[America Needs R'hllor]

You're right there (and an interesting argument would be that legalising such practices in the west would eliminate the much much more problematic practice in the developing world). Ultimately personal autonomy should win out in the end: if someone has a desire to carry a baby for someone else, they shouldn't be stopped (incidentally in my country surrogacy is legal but only "altruistic" surrogacy, which kind of carries its own odd little debates), but I hope regulation is sufficient that there isn't a wild west of womb renting.

I totally agree. About altruistic surrogacy- in Israel it's also considered technically altruistic. The money given to the surrogate mother isn't considered a salary or payment, but rather compensation for what she went through.
And I do think that by making surrogacy illegal, western countries basically force gay couples and others who need a surrogate mother to search for it in the east. This is both unfourtunate because it likely makes it a process for richer couples who can afford the travel and is thus unequal, and because it might cause exploitation for women in developing countries. This reinforces my criticism for the Scandinavian countries (where Sweden, for example, made all surrogacy illegal)- it seems to me like these countries love to feel morally superior while actually doing harm (e.g. Denmark wanting to make circumcision illegal, constant virtue-signaling against Israel from their safe perch up in northern Europe, the surrogacy issue in Sweden etc).

[dead0man]

Before I read the thread, I had an image in my head of an all-LGBTQ division of the Israeli military launching an airstrike against Gaza or something.

that would be awesome.  And pamphlets dropped with the bombs so the bigots on the ground know they were bettered by a bunch of مثلي الجنس.  Perhaps a brigade for interrogation too.



(and I just discovered that there are no good slurs for gay people in Arabic....that's a little disappointing.)