Opinion of the LGBTQ strike in Israel

[America Needs R'hllor]

Some background: after the Israeli parliament passed a law allowing surrogacy for basically everyone other than gay couples, and in protest against a recent stabbing of a trans woman in the streets of Tel Aviv and the continued oppression of the community in Israel, the LGBTQ organizations united and declared a general strike in Sunday (which is a regular work day in Israel) by all members of the community. In recent hours, more and more corporations and employers declared that they will give LGBTQ workers who want to participate in the strike a day off. It made so many waves that disruptions are expected in the flight schedules in Sunday.

Initially, I opposed this move for two reasons:
1. I view strikes more as a tool to help workers improve their conditions rather than a tool to advance social causes.
2. I believed that it would not gain enough traction due to the thin spread of LGBTQ workers in all the workplaces. I feared that it would only socially hurt those who participate and won't really be felt.
But I've clearly been proven wrong. This is making large waves and seems very much felt. I now view it as a Freedom Strike, an impressive show of power for the Israeli LGBTQ community.

[DavidB.]

Freedom Strike. If Israel wishes to promote itself as a paradise for gay people, "being better than the neighbors" isn't going to be enough. What's more, the vast majority of Israelis support gay rights improvements. Time for the government to start walking the walk and to stop allowing the Haredim to hijack this issue. Likud should not be permitted to have its cake and eat it too.

[Torie]

It's an effective tactic, because the aggrieved community shows that it is willing to make sacrifices to express their dissent, because it is viewed as a very serious issue of conscience. And that might induce some folks to reassess their views, or the priority that they place on the issue.

Beyond that, based on what David says, it seems some voters supporting gay rights are voting for a party that does not due to trying to appease another group. To the extent the party chieftains think they might lose power due to the defection of this cohort of voters, if they don't tack on this issue, that will really focus their mind on this issue, even if they personally don't give a damn about the LGBTQ community.

[Ohioguy29]

I think paid surrogacy is exploitative and should be illegal for everyone, so horrible strike.

[dead0man]

FS, for teh reasons DavidB said.

Didn't some "marginalized" group in the US try this earlier in the summer or maybe spring?  Women, black people, young people or immigrants....I forget, but I'm pretty sure it was one of those groups.  I don't think anybody noticed.

[American_Aristocracy]

I don't like associating strikes with political issues because that disassociates with the real reason for strikes, better working condiditions.

[IceAgeComing]

A very good idea and if it can force change to make life better for LGBTQ Israelis then all the better.

I don't like associating strikes with political issues because that disassociates with the real reason for strikes, better working condiditions.

that's historically been the main reason for strikes but there have been plenty of strikes where the primary aim has been forcing changes in other areas.  After all industrial action is a very powerful political tool when used effectively!

Also 'better working conditions' in many cases IS a political demand since all issues are political in some way and to suggest otherwise is baffling to me.  The people that went on strike demanding things like a minimum wage or protections for the right to organise were making key political demands at the time and to suggest that is somehow different to LGBTQ people fighting for their rights in this sort of way is also rather baffling - after all the rights that they are fighting for are equally as important to them as those other rights are.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I think paid surrogacy is exploitative and should be illegal for everyone, so horrible strike.

I see- there are many people who oppose surrogacy but support the strike because this law allows surrogacy but directly discriminates against homosexuals. What's your take on this?

[DC Al Fine]

I think paid surrogacy is exploitative and should be illegal for everyone, so horrible strike.

I see- there are many people who oppose surrogacy but support the strike because this law allows surrogacy but directly discriminates against homosexuals. What's your take on this?

I'm not OhioGuy but I have a similar stance...

No because the implication of the strike would be to liberalize the law. That said, you mentioned that another reason for the strike was because a trans person was stabbed. I don't know the particulars of the incident but if the cops aren't protecting people from violence, that's as good a reason as any to protest.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It's an indication of how sick and screwed up we are that the strongest popular reaction to commodifying the womb like this is discontent with its discriminatory application. Any limitation that reduces the amount of paid surrogacy is better than none, but it's unfortunate that workers are not instead striking to recall every MP who voted to allow this.

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

[Velasco]

I'm rather against surrogacy, but I support the right of gay couples to raise children and I'm against discrimination. FS

[Former President tack50]

I don't like associating strikes with political issues because that disassociates with the real reason for strikes, better working condiditions.

Same here, though I still strongly support the underlying cause. I don't really have a strong opinion on surrogate motherhood, but if it's going to be allowed, it should be allowed for everyone.

Though as always, it's worth noting that Israel treats LGBT people a million times better than any of their neighbours but that says less about them than about their neighbours

[America Needs R'hllor]

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

I also think that "I oppose surrogacy, therefore discriminating gays is better than letting everyone have a surrogacy" is a point of view similar to "I oppose religion, therefore banning Islam is better than letting everyone practice a religion". Sure, it doesn't come from a homophobic worldview which I'm sure you don't have, but it promotes homophobic policies. But that's another thing.

[DC Al Fine]

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

How exactly would you phrase a criticism of a culture that accepts something you find reprehensible?

It's an indication of how sick and screwed up we are that the strongest popular reaction to commodifying the womb like this is discontent with its discriminatory application. Any limitation that reduces the amount of paid surrogacy is better than none, but it's unfortunate that workers are not instead striking to recall every MP who voted to allow this.

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker.

If there's any insight social conservatives have to offer the public square it's that reproductive organs are very, very different from callused hands and strong backs.

[Velasco]

I would rather support a feminist strike against legislation allowing surrogacy. I think LGTBQ people has every right to protest against any form of discrimination, but they should protest too against practices that commodify women. Otherwise the strike is unfocused.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

How exactly would you phrase a criticism of a culture that accepts something you find reprehensible?

How about "surrogacy is sick and screwed up"? Btw, you can't "recall" a MK in Israel.

If there's any insight social conservatives have to offer the public square it's that reproductive organs are very, very different from callused hands and strong backs.

I disagree.

[DC Al Fine]

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

How exactly would you phrase a criticism of a culture that accepts something you find reprehensible?

How about "surrogacy is sick and screwed up"?

That's the practice not the culture. How would you criticize the culture

If there's any insight social conservatives have to offer the public square it's that reproductive organs are very, very different from callused hands and strong backs.

I disagree.

No one in the history of the universe has ever gotten pregnant from building houses. That alone is a BFD.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

I also think that "I oppose surrogacy, therefore discriminating gays is better than letting everyone have a surrogacy" is a point of view similar to "I oppose religion, therefore banning Islam is better than letting everyone practice a religion". Sure, it doesn't come from a homophobic worldview which I'm sure you don't have, but it promotes homophobic policies. But that's another thing.

That's a strange analogy.  Banning all religions is anti-Islam by definition.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

I also think that "I oppose surrogacy, therefore discriminating gays is better than letting everyone have a surrogacy" is a point of view similar to "I oppose religion, therefore banning Islam is better than letting everyone practice a religion". Sure, it doesn't come from a homophobic worldview which I'm sure you don't have, but it promotes homophobic policies. But that's another thing.

That's a strange analogy.  Banning all religions is anti-Islam by definition.

The point was that supporting a blanket ban on something is one thing, but supporting a discriminatory ban on one group BECAUSE you support a blanket ban is supporting a policy discriminating this group, whether or not it comes from a personal dislike towards the group.

If there's any insight social conservatives have to offer the public square it's that reproductive organs are very, very different from callused hands and strong backs.

I disagree.

No one in the history of the universe has ever gotten pregnant from building houses. That alone is a BFD.

I don't see how it should matter to me?

I know it's shocking, but not everyone agrees with your opinion. Some people happen to believe that surrogacy is a completely legitimate process and that "commodifying the womb" isn't different from commodifying the hands of a construction worker. Others also happen to believe that surrogacy is wildly different from prostitution in its mental impact, and that the prostitution industry is horrible while the surrogacy "industry" is doing no harm, so the comparison you're going to make in the next comment is moot.

I'm sure there are legitimate arguments for your side on this issue. But using wild hyperboles and delegitimizing everyone you oppose isn't a good look, and is very unconstructive for an argument. Disappointing.

Yes, I can read the comments above mine and read the results of the poll. I'm aware that an overwhelming majority of posters on this forum disagree with me.

It's awfully strange to open an "opinion of" thread and then lecture someone for having the temerity to disagree with you in strong terms.

I don't lecture someone for disagreeing with me, as you could see from my replies to other posters. I do find it disappointing that you imply everyone who disagrees with you is "sick and screwed up".

How exactly would you phrase a criticism of a culture that accepts something you find reprehensible?

How about "surrogacy is sick and screwed up"?

That's the practice not the culture. How would you criticize the culture

I guess I can't really find a way to criticize it. I apologize if I came off as abrasive, but I did feel like Averroës' post was pretty dismissive of the concerns of the Israeli LGBTQ community. Considering the fact that many anti-surrogacy advocates support the strikes for the other goals it advocates, I'll settle on believing that he just puts opposition to surrogacy way higher than opposing discrimination against the community on his list of priorities. Which he has a right for, of course, but it does entail supporting homophobic policies.

[Dukakisite1988]

I approve, but would prefer a strike in favor of Dukakis 2020.

[DavidB.]

I agree with all the criticisms of paid surrogacy, by the way: I don't support the practice at all. But the Israeli LGBT community has enough reason to protest for more rights either way. It is disappointing that this is what took people to protest, but I view it as the straw that broke the camel's back.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What's the problem with paid surrogacy?

[DavidB.]

What's the problem with paid surrogacy?

Literally paying women to carry and give birth to one's child? This really doesn't seem like the type of activity that should ever be commercialized and become a job.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If a woman has problem giving birth in her own what's wrong with paying someone to do it? If someone doesn't have a car they can pay someone to drive them with Uber and Lyft. Same principle.

[DavidB.]

If a woman has problem giving birth in her own what's wrong with paying someone to do it? If someone doesn't have a car they can pay someone to drive them with Uber and Lyft. Same principle.

Enough issues with Uber and Lyft as well, but driving a car isn't comparable to carrying and giving birth to a child, just like driving a car isn't comparable to having sex.