Trump/Putin disaster summit. And also overseas visit w/ NATO & UK.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Some of the other posts made in response to this did a good job of expressing what my response would be. My view is that just because you oppose Trump himself, or dislike him, does not mean that you should abandon your political beliefs or your ideological principles. You can still be a conservative Republican and not be a full-throated acolyte or supporter of his. What you and many of the other Democrats on this forum seem to want is for every "Never Trumper" to completely abandon the Republican Party, to become registered Democrats, and to completely shift their ideological views on every issue.

Well, no, that's not what I'm arguing—though you're very likely correct that some Democrats do feel that way. Reading the other posts in this thread, I think my problem is more with the "Never Trump" label itself, which if it means what our self-professed "Never Trump" Republican posters say it means doesn't strike me as particularly meaningful or unique in the grand scheme of things. From what I gather, anti-Trump Republicans are motivated more by the belief that Trump is an odious person with whom they disagree on a handful of issues (much the way Sanders Democrats feel about the Clintons) than by a belief that Trump's legislative agenda on the whole is leading the country in the wrong direction. In that case, I suppose it does make sense to continue voting Republican at the Congressional level, since when it comes down to it they still agree with Trump on the issues where Congressional action is relevant.

I do want to address one part of your post, namely the assumption that I or Democrats in general want "Never Trump" Republicans to change all their beliefs and join my party. I can't speak for every Democrat or liberal independent on this forum, but that's not where I'm coming from. My point was that if you believe that Trump is a unique threat to American democracy (and not merely a bad president in the ordinary sense), then the appropriate response would be to oppose his administration rigidly—and the most obvious way to do that would be to vote for the opposition party. I essentially take George Will's view on this, that voting Democrat in 2018 is a one-time protest of a morally bankrupt administration, and not a permanent conversion to liberal orthodoxy. Of course, if you only think Trump is an obnoxious blowhard with a few bad ideas, the mathematics of that calculation change significantly; but that doesn't strike me as principled opposition to Trumpism so much as ordinary inter-party squabbling.

I guess the question is whether, in the likely event that Trump is renominated in 2020, the anti-Trump faction will defect (either to the Democrats or a third party)—or conclude that while they don't like him personally, he's better than the Democratic alternative. If the latter, I'd argue that the "Never Trump" label is largely meaningless, and by extension that Trump is more reflective of the actual state of the GOP than his conservative detractors are willing to admit.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Mainly cause we believe that someone with Trump’s behavior and temperament should not be President.



Also The 2 issues we mainly disagree with Trump on (Tarrifs and Russia) is something most Republicans in Congress oppose him but really can’t do much to stop him due to how powerful the modern presidency has become . The third issue we disagree on him (Immigration) the Republicans in Congress did stop him as they didn’t fund the Wall or pass his immigration plan and really limited Trump to overturning executive orders on that issue.

You're point about the modern presidency is taken—though I wonder why we don't see more of an effort to curtail executive authority in that case? I seem to remember Bob Corker proposing limiting the president's power to unilaterally levy tariffs for national security purposes, but it doesn't seem to  have gained much support within the SRC.

I guess my other question would be, whether there are circumstances in which you could see yourself supporting Trump for reelection in 2020? I assume you would have serious objections to voting for Sanders or Warren if they were to gain the nomination; would your course of action then be to back a third party or conservative independent, or to reluctantly support Trump as the lesser of two evils?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Mainly cause we believe that someone with Trump’s behavior and temperament should not be President.



Also The 2 issues we mainly disagree with Trump on (Tarrifs and Russia) is something most Republicans in Congress oppose him but really can’t do much to stop him due to how powerful the modern presidency has become . The third issue we disagree on him (Immigration) the Republicans in Congress did stop him as they didn’t fund the Wall or pass his immigration plan and really limited Trump to overturning executive orders on that issue.

You're point about the modern presidency is taken—though I wonder why we don't see more of an effort to curtail executive authority in that case? I seem to remember Bob Corker proposing limiting the president's power to unilaterally levy tariffs for national security purposes, but it doesn't seem to  have gained much support within the SRC.

I guess my other question would be, whether there are circumstances in which you could see yourself supporting Trump for reelection in 2020? I assume you would have serious objections to voting for Sanders or Warren if they were to gain the nomination; would your course of action then be to back a third party or conservative independent, or to reluctantly support Trump as the lesser of two evils?

Well since I live in Oregon , I will vote for the third party candidate in 2020 (unless dem nominee is Bullock, Bel Edwards and maybe Biden or Booker ).


If I lived in a swing state I literally have no idea

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Has all this gone away?

I seemingly hear nothing about this "Disaster Summit" anymore.  It's not even a campaign issue.

Lots of Republicans here said they would vote Democratic for Congress; is that still true? 

Dan Coats is still at his job, and hasn't been heard from in quite some time.  What does one make of this?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Has all this gone away?

I seemingly hear nothing about this "Disaster Summit" anymore.  It's not even a campaign issue.

Lots of Republicans here said they would vote Democratic for Congress; is that still true? 

Dan Coats is still at his job, and hasn't been heard from in quite some time.  What does one make of this?

You are way more of a Trump supporter than I am, yet you voted more for Democrats at prominent levels than I did or I would have in Florida(I would have voted for Scott)

[KingSweden]

Has all this gone away?

I seemingly hear nothing about this "Disaster Summit" anymore.  It's not even a campaign issue.

Lots of Republicans here said they would vote Democratic for Congress; is that still true? 

Dan Coats is still at his job, and hasn't been heard from in quite some time.  What does one make of this?

I mean the news is a bit like a firehose these days

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Has all this gone away?

I seemingly hear nothing about this "Disaster Summit" anymore.  It's not even a campaign issue.

Lots of Republicans here said they would vote Democratic for Congress; is that still true? 

Dan Coats is still at his job, and hasn't been heard from in quite some time.  What does one make of this?

You are way more of a Trump supporter than I am, yet you voted more for Democrats at prominent levels than I did or I would have in Florida(I would have voted for Scott)

I have some rather parochial concerns.

I object to Rick Scott, period.  I probably would have voted for another Republican if Scott and Nelson weren't the candidates.  I did vote Republican for Congress and all of my favorite local Republicans were unopposed.  My problem with the FL GOP is that they went from a somewhat moderate Republican Party to a party whose policies have worked to erode the middle class in Florida.  

[KingSweden]

Has all this gone away?

I seemingly hear nothing about this "Disaster Summit" anymore.  It's not even a campaign issue.

Lots of Republicans here said they would vote Democratic for Congress; is that still true? 

Dan Coats is still at his job, and hasn't been heard from in quite some time.  What does one make of this?

You are way more of a Trump supporter than I am, yet you voted more for Democrats at prominent levels than I did or I would have in Florida(I would have voted for Scott)

I have some rather parochial concerns.

I object to Rick Scott, period.  I probably would have voted for another Republican if Scott and Nelson weren't the candidates.  I did vote Republican for Congress and all of my favorite local Republicans were unopposed.  My problem with the FL GOP is that they went from a somewhat moderate Republican Party to a party whose policies have worked to erode the middle class in Florida.  

When were they moderate? The Jeb! years?

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Has all this gone away?

I seemingly hear nothing about this "Disaster Summit" anymore.  It's not even a campaign issue.

Lots of Republicans here said they would vote Democratic for Congress; is that still true? 

Dan Coats is still at his job, and hasn't been heard from in quite some time.  What does one make of this?

You are way more of a Trump supporter than I am, yet you voted more for Democrats at prominent levels than I did or I would have in Florida(I would have voted for Scott)

I have some rather parochial concerns.

I object to Rick Scott, period.  I probably would have voted for another Republican if Scott and Nelson weren't the candidates.  I did vote Republican for Congress and all of my favorite local Republicans were unopposed.  My problem with the FL GOP is that they went from a somewhat moderate Republican Party to a party whose policies have worked to erode the middle class in Florida.  

When were they moderate? The Jeb! years?

Prior to the 1990s, Florida's Democratic Party was divided between "Pork Chopper" North Florida conservative Dems and some urban liberals in Miami and Tampa.  Senate Presidents and House Speakers often won with a coalition of conservative Democrats and a few Republicans, who were the more liberal of the coalition.  In addition, MIAMI Cubans have been staunchly Republican, in appreciation of the anti-Communist posture of the GOP, but they have been very much moderate Republicans down the line. 

Many of Florida's Republicans were surprisingly moderate.  Rep. C. W. (Bill) Young (R-St. Petersburg) was a moderate Repubican and a constructive legislator on key health issues as was State Senator "Doc" Meyers (R-Hobe Sound) who was voted legislator of the year by FADAA (Florida Alcohol and Drug Abuse Association).  Sen. Paula Hawkins (R-Orlando) was surprisingly moderate and pro-consumer.  Gov. Bob Martinez was the moderate choice in the 1986 GOP primary.  Rep. Mark Foley (R-Tequesta) may be a disgraced figure now, but he was well-regarded until his scandal, a likely challenger to Nelson in 2006 who strongly asserted that his voting record was "Moderate, moderate, moderate!".  The Republican Party tended to reflect the viewpoints of Northern retirees and migrants, and that outlook reflected a more progressive viewpoint than the old-fashioned Democratic viewpoint. 

All of this pretty much changed for good when the Republicans took over the legislature.  At that point, all of North Florida turned Republican at all levels, and all of the state legislators from North Florida, save those from black areas, became Republicans.  At the same time, the new retirees were less and less likely to be union members and more likely to be the sort that had a 401(k) or a corporate job and a pile of money with which to pay cash for a house with and wanted taxes as low as possible.  This also happened at the time Newt Gingrich nationalized all levels of politics.  Jeb! pretty much locked all of this in. 

Florida's GOP primaries are now contests to assert "Who's the REAL conservative?".  The reason for this is that the national money that floods politics these days is ideological money.  The GOP has a lock on FL in terms of its legislature; now, they want to ensure that ONLY conservative Republicans win primaries to ensure their uber-low tax, low services environment.  This is from the 1990s onward.  Charlie Crist was the last moderate Republican to win a primary, and he was pretty much drummed out of the party by the end of his term.

The Far Right leanings of Florida's GOP has not always been.  It is now, but it hasn't always been.