L 12.1 New Abortion Ban Act (Debating)

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

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[Wells]

Where's the motion for cloture? This bill is pretty straightforward.

[JGibson]

I am going to vote NO on this bill due to the fact that this bill is also an attack on the right for the woman to choose to have an abortion in this region. Also, abortion is NOT equivalent to murder at all.

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[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I motion to amend the bill such that it reads as follows:

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[Wells]

I was going to talk about the icky status quo and how apparently some babies are okay to chop up and right at a certain point it's suddenly illegal in the original thread, but the bill passed super quickly for some reason, so this bill is the new spot to roast the old one. And, boy, did it have problems. Like, does anyone actually think life starts right at 12 weeks or whatever? If so, that's news to me.

And, if LT thinks abortion is murder, why isn't the punishment the same in his bill? (I don't know the answer to that but I do know the answer to the next one - maybe it's the same?) Moving on to this new amendment, if Wulfric thinks it's murder, why is murder okay in certain circumstances in his amendment? I think the answer is a little uncomfortable: he doesn't like abortion but he knows it's necessary. There are just some cases where an abortion has to happen. And abortions will always happen, legal or not. The only difference is the legal ones won't harm the mother.

tl;dr: Your "pro-life" bills are wimpy. Go big or go home.

Of course, I just introduced this bill to create a discussion. My main point is that the abortion bill Lincoln had before the last abortion bill passed was way better. It outlawed abortion past fetal viability, after which point the fetuses are pretty much like actual babies so it's actually murder then. Before then is when all the necessary abortions happen anyway.

Anyway, if this does pass the Assembly, then I encourage ReaganClinton to sign this because it would be really easy to defeat in the Supreme Court.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

The bill as originally introduced in the OP does punish abortion the same as for Murder, the change to Manslaughter is in my amendment only. Also, this is not "LT's bill", this is your bill, LT is simply a sponsor since bills need an Assembly sponsor to be considered.

As for why I have proposed to amend the bill to add the 3 exceptions - well, it is as you suggest, because there are some dire circumstances where the government should allow an abortion to be performed. That does not mean we should encourage it, but it does mean we should allow it to be done. But allowing the "extreme" cases does not somehow make it such that we should allow abortions for convenience reasons.

As for why I believe Manslaughter is a more appropriate designation than Murder, it has been my long-held view that abortion is a (slightly) less heinous act than the typical post-birth murder. Specifically, I do not believe a life without parole sentence, which is a typical option for murder cases, is appropriate for abortion performers.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

If you guys want a former Lincolnite's opinion: the original abortion bill never should have passed; not because I opposed it, but because it was rammed through with almost no time for the public to comment, and it received no meaningful debate in the Assembly.  That's a really shady way of doing legislative business and I hope this body doesn't make that same mistake with this very extreme bill.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

If you guys want a former Lincolnite's opinion: the original abortion bill never should have passed; not because I opposed it, but because it was rammed through with almost no time for the public to comment, and it received no meaningful debate in the Assembly.  That's a really shady way of doing legislative business and I hope this body doesn't make that same mistake with this very extreme bill.

Well, as you can see, no immediate UC request has been filed this time, and had one been filed, I would have immediately objected. Quite frankly, I don't know why JGibson didn't object to the UC request on the earlier bill.

[Wells]

Maybe I wrote a confusing post because I'm tired but I am aware of all that? I intended to criticize LT's bill in this thread (the one passed before this one), that's why I talked about LT's bill. And I talked about your amendment because I wanted to criticize that too. I think the bill I introduced is perfect when it comes to dealing with abortion.

And I see your arguments but I also don't like them. There is no reason why some babies are okay to kill and some aren't. I think all life is sacred, but more importantly fo this conversation it's also equal. If one baby at x weeks is legal to kill and one isn't, with the only difference being where he or she came from, I don't agree with that.

So why are these "extreme" cases okay? When it comes to life of the mother it's obvious. You can only save the mother by having an abortion, so I can see that. When it comes to incest, the baby will obviously have a troubled life with the negative effects he or she will suffer from inbreeding. But with rape, it's due to the trauma the mother is experiencing and would experience from pregnancy and all that. Yet might other pregnant women be more desperate for an abortion? If one is legal to kill I don't see why their babies aren't either. But I suppose that's a fundamental difference of opinion.

And, if we are to have a bill like this be the real law, I'd actually like to increase the funding for adoption services and make sure that the women who don't want their children are given special care during pregnancy to reduce trauma. Someone make that amendment please, or don't, because like I said the court is waiting.

This was a response to Wulfric's first post after mine btw, not these new posts.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

It's clear you're not asking for an amendment to make the bill better, but rather to make it look more in tune with your own memes. You also pretty blatantly want the bill struck down in court, so why are you worried about its exact language anyways? If someone else in the assembly wants to introduce your amendment, please do go ahead, I might even vote for it, but I'm not directly supporting this meme by introducing it myself.

[RC (a la Frémont)]

Okay, I know I publicly opposed LT’s bill but this is a bit much. I will let you all know now that I will not sign this law if passed, and I’ll only accept an amendment to the current bill that’s a little more lax on what the bills restrictions were. This bill won’t help in supporting the women of Lincoln and I will not allow it to stand.

[Wells]

It's clear you're not asking for an amendment to make the bill better, but rather to make it look more in tune with your own memes. You also pretty blatantly want the bill struck down in court, so why are you worried about its exact language anyways? If someone else in the assembly wants to introduce your amendment, please do go ahead, I might even vote for it, but I'm not directly supporting this meme by introducing it myself.

Do you know what a meme is?

[Wells]

Oh and my suggestion would actually make the bill better. For a refresher, I said:

And, if we are to have a bill like this be the real law, I'd actually like to increase the funding for adoption services and make sure that the women who don't want their children are given special care during pregnancy to reduce trauma.

How do you hate this? Like I get not thinking it's genuine, but imagine reading this and thinking, "Absolutely not! This will not be our policy!"

But it looks like RC will veto. Which is fine, I guess. But that means we'd have "12 weeks" be the official policy. Which I don't like, but I've spent all my effort on this by now. Just get a better one soon I guess.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Why in the hell is Wulfric trying to enact eugenics? Why should "incest" be a free pass for elective abortion?

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I motion to amend the bill such that it reads as follows:

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As no one in the assembly appears to object to the amendment, I motion for unanimous consent that the amendment be agreed to.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Someone object to incest.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I object to the amendment.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

A vote on Wulfric's amendment has started. Assemblymen have 24 hours to vote aye, nay, or abstain.

Nay!

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

AYE

[Dr. MB]

Nay

[JGibson]

NAY

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

The amendment was rejected 3-1-1. Debate resumes.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

As this total ban is ridiculous, and not worthy of anyone's support, I ask UC to table the legislation.

[JGibson]

As this total ban is ridiculous, and not worthy of anyone's support, I ask UC to table the legislation.

I agree with Wulfric. It's time to table this garbage bill.