A Song of Ice and Fire Thread: night gathers, and now this thread begins

[Bacon King]

I love ASOIAF almost as much as I love politics and Paradox games. This site is dedicated to the former topic and I've created a successful thread for the latter, so after broaching the idea with other fans of the series to determine enough interest exists, I've decided to go ahead and create it!

This is a thread for anything and everything related to GRRM's book series A Song of Ice and Fire and other associated content. Discussions about the TV show are fine if everyone is okay with that, but the primary focus here is the book series and the amazing setting they occur within. For example if you want to post about something from the show, you should specify it in your post (e.g. "Show Jon," "TV Dorne" etc) because even people who feature in both the show and the books can often be very different between two.

But anyways, welcome fellow GRRM fans to the first ASOIAF thread! Who's excited about Fire and Blood's upcoming release? If you'd like, feel free to make an introductory and say whatever you want. We all love these books enough to stomach so many years of waiting between them so I assume we're all fairly dedicated fans. Why does ASOIAF appeal to you? Who's your favorite character, location, event? Have any good podcasts/youtubers to recommend? Have a favorite theory, whether reasonable or "tinfoil"? Because I personally have dozens to share because I overthink everything

edit: thread spoiler policy
the thread is dark and full of spoilers

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

My vote would be enter at your own risk for the night is dark and full of spoilers.

[Blue3]

Don't we already have a "winter is coming" thread, or is that just for the TV show? I wish search still worked for these boards...

[RINO Tom]

My vote would be enter at your own risk for the night is dark and full of spoilers.

Amen.  As for the whole universe, there is one question that I care about more than anything else - and think we might get some answers to with the spinoff idea they chose for a pilot - and it's this: TELL ME ABOUT THE FAR EAST, baby!  Asshai, the Shadow Lands, Stygai ... just give me anything more than we've been given!

[Bacon King]

My vote would be enter at your own risk for the night is dark and full of spoilers.

Amen.  As for the whole universe, there is one question that I care about more than anything else - and think we might get some answers to with the spinoff idea they chose for a pilot - and it's this: TELL ME ABOUT THE FAR EAST, baby!  Asshai, the Shadow Lands, Stygai ... just give me anything more than we've been given!

Yes! The Far East is definitely my favorite part of AWOIAF!

In my head-canon, Asshai was the capital of the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the surrounding countryside was turned into the Shadowlands by whatever catastrophe caused the Long Night. Some sort of magical "radiation" is still present in the land that kills all living things, similar to what happened to the Valyrian Freehold although much longer ago.

[dead0man]

I'm almost halfway through A Feast for Crows.  I've never read "fantasy" of the Elf and Fairy variety before (and never will again, I couldn't even read Eyes of the Dragon when I was in my King phase that we all must go through).  I'm learning lots of new words!

[Bacon King]

I'm almost halfway through A Feast for Crows.  I've never read "fantasy" of the Elf and Fairy variety before (and never will again, I couldn't even read Eyes of the Dragon when I was in my King phase that we all must go through).  I'm learning lots of new words!

definitely share your thoughts!

Since you mentioned it, I don't really like the genre at all. Admittedly I haven't read every fantasy author, but the only fantasy novels that I genuinely enjoyed were written by either J.R.R. Tolkien or G.R.R. Martin. I think it speaks to their talent as authors that I still love their works

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

My vote would be enter at your own risk for the night is dark and full of spoilers.

Amen.  As for the whole universe, there is one question that I care about more than anything else - and think we might get some answers to with the spinoff idea they chose for a pilot - and it's this: TELL ME ABOUT THE FAR EAST, baby!  Asshai, the Shadow Lands, Stygai ... just give me anything more than we've been given!

Yes! The Far East is definitely my favorite part of AWOIAF!

In my head-canon, Asshai was the capital of the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the surrounding countryside was turned into the Shadowlands by whatever catastrophe caused the Long Night. Some sort of magical "radiation" is still present in the land that kills all living things, similar to what happened to the Valyrian Freehold although much longer ago.

The North has always been my favorite region by a country mile.

[Blue3]

Don't we already have a "winter is coming" thread, or is that just for the TV show? I wish search still worked for these boards...

[Alabama_Indy10]

My vote would be enter at your own risk for the night is dark and full of spoilers.

Amen.  As for the whole universe, there is one question that I care about more than anything else - and think we might get some answers to with the spinoff idea they chose for a pilot - and it's this: TELL ME ABOUT THE FAR EAST, baby!  Asshai, the Shadow Lands, Stygai ... just give me anything more than we've been given!

Yes! The Far East is definitely my favorite part of AWOIAF!

In my head-canon, Asshai was the capital of the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the surrounding countryside was turned into the Shadowlands by whatever catastrophe caused the Long Night. Some sort of magical "radiation" is still present in the land that kills all living things, similar to what happened to the Valyrian Freehold although much longer ago.

The North has always been my favorite region by a country mile.

[dead0man]

I'm almost halfway through A Feast for Crows.  I've never read "fantasy" of the Elf and Fairy variety before (and never will again, I couldn't even read Eyes of the Dragon when I was in my King phase that we all must go through).  I'm learning lots of new words!

definitely share your thoughts!

like with all books you read after you've seen the thing in video, I'm picturing the actors in my head and Brinne and Arya are nowhere near as ugly in the show as they are in the books....and that's weird in my head.

The excessive amount of times he writes about the clothes and environment in extreme detail is....bothersome.  yes yes, the doublet is lovely, move on!

I'm not bothered by the differences(zombie Cat, fake Arya, the Vale stuff, the Dorne stuff), I like it actually.  Maybe not zombie Cat.

[Bacon King]

Don't we already have a "winter is coming" thread, or is that just for the TV show? I wish search still worked for these boards...

that seemed to be just for the show and at any rate is very dead so I made a new thread instead

[DINGO Joe]

Even though they barely exist in the TV show, I still expect big things from House Manderly in the books, they're gluttonous and a little slovenly but also quite clever.  I'd expect RR to be quite sympathetic to characters that he fancies to be like him.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I'm almost halfway through A Feast for Crows.  I've never read "fantasy" of the Elf and Fairy variety before (and never will again, I couldn't even read Eyes of the Dragon when I was in my King phase that we all must go through).  I'm learning lots of new words!

definitely share your thoughts!

like with all books you read after you've seen the thing in video, I'm picturing the actors in my head and Brinne and Arya are nowhere near as ugly in the show as they are in the books....and that's weird in my head.

The excessive amount of times he writes about the clothes and environment in extreme detail is....bothersome.  yes yes, the doublet is lovely, move on!

I'm not bothered by the differences(zombie Cat, fake Arya, the Vale stuff, the Dorne stuff), I like it actually.  Maybe not zombie Cat.

I mean, ShowArya might as well be a FakeArya since she's basically a completely different character at this point who just happens to have BookArya's name *grumble* *grumble* *grumble*

[dead0man]

are the differences in the second half of A Feast of Crows or in the last book?  Or have I missed something?  I haven't noticed too many differences in the Aryas.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

are the differences in the second half of A Feast of Crows or in the last book?  Or have I missed something?  I haven't noticed too many differences in the Aryas.

I mean, Season7Arya toys with the idea of murdering her sister and wearing Sansa’s skin, is pretty kill-crazy, and talks like a 90s slasher villain.  That’s very much not the case for BookArya whom I’d argue doesn’t even enjoy killing.

[Bacon King]

are the differences in the second half of A Feast of Crows or in the last book?  Or have I missed something?  I haven't noticed too many differences in the Aryas.

I mean, Season7Arya toys with the idea of murdering her sister and wearing Sansa’s skin, is pretty kill-crazy, and talks like a 90s slasher villain.  That’s very much not the case for BookArya whom I’d argue doesn’t even enjoy killing.

I don't know - Book Arya is utterly desensitized to violence at this point, has no hesitation about murdering people, and is literally in the process of being brainwashed by an assasin guild death cult. Not like Arya in the show, sure, but just as murderous and unstable.

Also to talk about the show for a moment: the Arya - Sansa conflict in the show is incredibly poorly executed (and the resolution in particular is incredibly weak, with the sisters reunited off-screen by an incredibly convenient Bran ex machina. HOWEVER, Arya's suspicions towards Sansa honestly seem justified to me?

Sansa's actions during the Battle of the Bastards seemed nonsensical at the time, but in hindsight it makes a lot of sense. Why did she not tell Jon about the knights of the Vale? Why did she conveniently ride in to save the day at the last possible minute? It's honestly very straightforward and simple. She was fully expecting to arrive after Jon died in the battle. Note that in her conversations with Jon leading up to the attack on Winterfell, he was utterly despondent, determined to continue on a seemingly hopeless course of action, seemingly resigned to his fate. He didn't even heed her advice about Ramsey.

To me it's entirely reasonable (from Sansa's perspective) that she gave up on what seemed clearly to be a lost cause. She learned intrigue by paying attention to Cersei and Littlefinger and knows how to play the game of thrones. She didn't want Jon to die but she gave up on his cause and planned her own contingencies after she realized Jon was apparently determined to die in a blaze of glory.

Her instincts were spot-on, of course - Jon nearly died at several points in the battle. Hell, he almost got himself killed mere seconds after the battle started (if his cavalry began their charge a second late, or if he ran another twenty feet before stopping, he would have been immediately trampled/stabbed by the Bolton cavalry as literally the very first casualty of the battle (not counting lil bro Rickon).

She assumed Jon would indeed be dead before she arrived. The Vale knights would have massacred the weakened and exhausted Boltons while they were distracted finishing off the last remnants of Jon's army. Her army would then storm Winterfell and she'd be installed as Lady of Winterfell and Queen in the North. Her motives become so clear once you realize this was her intention. She was shocked to find Jon alive but she's grown politically savvy and immediately adapted her plan and deferred to her brother (and she was probably happy to see he lived in spite of his obvious death wish).

Jon and his army were saved by Sansa's actions so he had no reason to be anything other thank thankful. Arya however is very, very close to Jon (even if that's like never stated in the show) and her experiences have naturally left her paranoid and suspicious. The scenes between the sisters were weird and awkwardly written but it makes a lot of sense to me that Arya would go out of her way to intimidate her sister and question her motives.

I've never written any of this out before (and it came out longer than I expected) but I've been tossing this idea around in my head and I'm fairly certain this was the intended structure of the plot arc before D&D ed it up by dumbing down the plot as they wrote each episode

[dead0man]

I generally agree with all that.

One of my bigger issues with the scene was.....why the funk didn't Rickon serpentine?  He just ran in a straight line....I suppose "fear" may have made him momentarily stupid and certainly he had to flee Winterfell too young to have learned how to lessen your chances of getting hit by arrows AND he didn't necessarily know it was just one guy shooting arrows at him....but still.  And why didn't Jon yell something about it.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

are the differences in the second half of A Feast of Crows or in the last book?  Or have I missed something?  I haven't noticed too many differences in the Aryas.

I mean, Season7Arya toys with the idea of murdering her sister and wearing Sansa’s skin, is pretty kill-crazy, and talks like a 90s slasher villain.  That’s very much not the case for BookArya whom I’d argue doesn’t even enjoy killing.

I don't know - Book Arya is utterly desensitized to violence at this point, has no hesitation about murdering people, and is literally in the process of being brainwashed by an assasin guild death cult. Not like Arya in the show, sure, but just as murderous and unstable.

*snip*

Like I said in IIRC, I think BookArya doesn't seem to enjoy killing at all (unlike ShowArya) and has been deeply traumatized by it.  Also, she *usually* avoids violent conflict whenever possible.  I think BookArya is just a little girl suffering from PTSD who has lost so much already and been through far more than any child should have to endure and is desperately trying to cling to some speck of control over her environment/sense that there can be justice in a world that (from her PoV) seems to reward only evil and senseless cruelty.  I don't think she's truly buying into the FM ideology b/c she didn't kill Raff for the FM, she did it b/c she's trying to still apply her sense of justice.  Same with the NW deserter.  Also, she's very much still Arya and not No One as The Mercy chapter makes crystal clear. 

Now ShowArya OTOH...well...the less said about her circa season seven, the better.