Italian Elections and Politics 2022 - Our Time to Schlein

[Astatine]

Anyways, not to derail this thread into swearing in foreign languages: I read somewhere that the President of the Italian Supreme Court, Marta Cartabia, is rumored to be a potential successor for Conte as Prime Minister. Any infos on that?

What do you MEAN shifting the thread topic from "Renzi opens government crisis" to "Catholics have such imaginatively obscene ways to break the Second Commandment" just because I got mad at Clarko's language is derailing??

Anyway, personally I have never heard Marta Cartabia mentioned by anyone except by my father during his fever dreams of an institutional (and anti-M5S) government. Also, she is not a member of the Constitutional Court anymore.

Me adding some more info on blasphemic insults in a non-Romanic language was the derailment, so I wanted to balance that a bit.

Just researched again where I found that, it was in the Austrian "Der Standard" and some other German news outlets apparently copied that.

[CumbrianLefty]

BREAKING:

Italy's government has just fallen apart.

Wasn't that a more or less permanent headline for literally decades?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

BREAKING:

Italy's government has just fallen apart.

Wasn't that a more or less permanent headline for literally decades?

Conte II is the sixty-sixth government in 74.5 years of Italian Republic.
It is also the one-hundred-and-thirty-first in 160 years of united Italy, and the one-hundred-and-thirtieth in 139 years if one excludes the looong and, ahem, peculiar, Mussolini government.
So yeah it never was not a permanent headline (except during Fascism).

[Sir Mohamed]

What are the reasons Italy's govts are so unstable over decades? Seems like this isn't the case elsewhere in Europe. Even in Spain, which is similar in terms of economic and social status. France obviously has a different governing system while Germany and Northern European countries are generally more stable.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

What are the reasons Italy's govts are so unstable over decades? Seems like this isn't the case elsewhere in Europe. Even in Spain, which is similar in terms of economic and social status. France obviously has a different governing system while Germany and Northern European countries are generally more stable.

A (for the most periods proportional) parliamentary system with lots of parties, almost never a strong bipolarism, all the clienterarism that ran within and around DC (and the Kingdom-era liberals for that matter) etc. etc. etc.
Compare Belgium (almost 50 governments since the end of WW2, and that's considering that they've had caretaker periods far longer than ours).

[parochial boy]

What are the reasons Italy's govts are so unstable over decades? Seems like this isn't the case elsewhere in Europe. Even in Spain, which is similar in terms of economic and social status. France obviously has a different governing system while Germany and Northern European countries are generally more stable.

A (for the most periods proportional) parliamentary system with lots of parties, almost never a strong bipolarism, all the clienterarism that ran within and around DC (and the Kingdom-era liberals for that matter) etc. etc. etc.
Compare Belgium (almost 50 governments since the end of WW2, and that's considering that they've had caretaker periods far longer than ours).

And France was almost always in the same situation until the 5th Republic. Which does make you wonder if pursuing governmental stability at the cost of all else is really the best thing to do

[palandio]

Hyperbolically speaking it could be argued that the governments during Italy's First Republic were very stable in the sense that it was always the same parties involved and the general outlook was always the same*. And exactly this led to a very short average survival time for each cabinet. If things will remain almost the same anyways then why not topple the government as soon as there is the opportunity for a litte gain?

*There were of course some significant developments over time like the compromesso storico, the rise of Craxi's Socialists, etc.

[President Johnson]

I think it's irresponsible from Renzi to blow up the government right now with a pandemic raging. This is not the time for such moves.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hyperbolically speaking it could be argued that the governments during Italy's First Republic were very stable in the sense that it was always the same parties involved and the general outlook was always the same*. And exactly this led to a very short average survival time for each cabinet. If things will remain almost the same anyways then why not topple the government as soon as there is the opportunity for a litte gain?

*There were of course some significant developments over time like the compromesso storico, the rise of Craxi's Socialists, etc.

Yeah, the First Republic governments were fairly stable in terms of the policies they pursued, even if which specific people pursued them changed all the time. And this long-term policy stability allowed them to advance long-term projects in a way Italian governments have just stopped doing since the 1990s (the last one was really entry into the Euro).

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Hyperbolically speaking it could be argued that the governments during Italy's First Republic were very stable in the sense that it was always the same parties involved and the general outlook was always the same*. And exactly this led to a very short average survival time for each cabinet. If things will remain almost the same anyways then why not topple the government as soon as there is the opportunity for a litte gain?

*There were of course some significant developments over time like the compromesso storico, the rise of Craxi's Socialists, etc.

Yeah, the First Republic governments were fairly stable in terms of the policies they pursued, even if which specific people pursued them changed all the time. And this long-term policy stability allowed them to advance long-term projects in a way Italian governments have just stopped doing since the 1990s (the last one was really entry into the Euro).

What you both say is true, and, I mean, it's peak Italianness.
As Il Gattopardo says: If we want that everything stays the same, we need that everything change.

[bore]

Hyperbolically speaking it could be argued that the governments during Italy's First Republic were very stable in the sense that it was always the same parties involved and the general outlook was always the same*. And exactly this led to a very short average survival time for each cabinet. If things will remain almost the same anyways then why not topple the government as soon as there is the opportunity for a litte gain?

*There were of course some significant developments over time like the compromesso storico, the rise of Craxi's Socialists, etc.

Yeah, the First Republic governments were fairly stable in terms of the policies they pursued, even if which specific people pursued them changed all the time. And this long-term policy stability allowed them to advance long-term projects in a way Italian governments have just stopped doing since the 1990s (the last one was really entry into the Euro).

What you both say is true, and, I mean, it's peak Italianness.
As Il Gattopardo says: If we want that everything stays the same, we need that everything change.

I've always interpreted that line in the context of the novel as a very clever man deluding himself about his own failure, not an actually coherent philosophy. For all the clever tactical victories achieved by The Leopard during the Risorgimento, in the last two chapters of the book (Don Fabrizio's death and his daughter elderly spinsterhood) we see that ultimately everything he's been trying to preserve has disappeared.

[palandio]

Hyperbolically speaking it could be argued that the governments during Italy's First Republic were very stable in the sense that it was always the same parties involved and the general outlook was always the same*. And exactly this led to a very short average survival time for each cabinet. If things will remain almost the same anyways then why not topple the government as soon as there is the opportunity for a litte gain?

*There were of course some significant developments over time like the compromesso storico, the rise of Craxi's Socialists, etc.

Yeah, the First Republic governments were fairly stable in terms of the policies they pursued, even if which specific people pursued them changed all the time. And this long-term policy stability allowed them to advance long-term projects in a way Italian governments have just stopped doing since the 1990s (the last one was really entry into the Euro).

What you both say is true, and, I mean, it's peak Italianness.
As Il Gattopardo says: If we want that everything stays the same, we need that everything change.

I've always interpreted that line in the context of the novel as a very clever man deluding himself about his own failure, not an actually coherent philosophy. For all the clever tactical victories achieved by The Leopard during the Risorgimento, in the last two chapters of the book (Don Fabrizio's death and his daughter elderly spinsterhood) we see that ultimately everything he's been trying to preserve has disappeared.

That's an interesting interpretational ambiguity. In fact what Tomasi di Lampedusa originally meant and how it was widely understood don't necessarily need to be the same. I never read the novel but in the film it looked like Don Fabrizio approved of Tancredi's successful adaption to the new regime. And I think that this is how many understood it.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In the book the point is put across in a rather sharper manner than the film. But one reason why that line is so clever is that it does have multiple meanings: as the delusion of a clever man trying to convince himself that he isn't presiding over the slow destruction of his universe, but also as a barbed comment on the politics of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So Conte has until Tuesday to find enough "responsible" (or "treasonous", depending on your political inclinations) MPs who would defect from their parties and form a new parliamentary group to buffer his majority without Renzi's support. There is a proud tradition of past governments cobbling together governments that way, of course, but no guarantee.

Yesterday, it looked like he was on track to find them. Today, it's been less clear, and there are talks of renewed negotiations with IV instead. Hard to know what to make of it. The situation remains very fluid, as they say.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

To be clear, the Chamber will vote on a motion of (no) confidence on Monday, and the Senate will do the same on Tuesday.

The government's numbers look worse in the Senate.

I have no expectations, I prefer to look forward to the change in U.S. government that will happen on Wednesday [and will be accompanied by a change in my display name].

[jaichind]

Would not Senators from Renzi and Berlusconi parties have an incentive to break ranks and vote with the government ?  A snap election most likely they lose their seats.  As much as I want a snap election where Lega sweeps into power I sort of doubt that will actually take place.

[Estrella]

Would not Senators from Renzi and Berlusconi parties have an incentive to break ranks and vote with the government ?  A snap election most likely they lose their seats.  As much as I want a snap election where Lega sweeps into power I sort of doubt that will actually take place.

I know you have always treaded the line between responsible orthodox economic policies and the supporting the most right-wing option available, but I thought you liked the former more than the latter?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Would not Senators from Renzi and Berlusconi parties have an incentive to break ranks and vote with the government ?  A snap election most likely they lose their seats.  As much as I want a snap election where Lega sweeps into power I sort of doubt that will actually take place.

I know you have always treaded the line between responsible orthodox economic policies and the supporting the most right-wing option available, but I thought you liked the former more than the latter?

By now you should understand that "scratch a libertarian, a fascist bleeds" is a 100% accurate summary of jaichind's politics. He's the literal living embodiment of the phrase.

[Coldstream]

Would not Senators from Renzi and Berlusconi parties have an incentive to break ranks and vote with the government ?  A snap election most likely they lose their seats.  As much as I want a snap election where Lega sweeps into power I sort of doubt that will actually take place.

I know you have always treaded the line between responsible orthodox economic policies and the supporting the most right-wing option available, but I thought you liked the former more than the latter?

By now you should understand that "scratch a libertarian, a fascist bleeds" is a 100% accurate summary of jaichind's politics. He's the literal living embodiment of the phrase.

Aren’t Lega Nord quite economically interventionist too? I’d have thought Brothers of Italy would be more suitable for a fascist adjacent Libertarian.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Would not Senators from Renzi and Berlusconi parties have an incentive to break ranks and vote with the government ?  A snap election most likely they lose their seats.  As much as I want a snap election where Lega sweeps into power I sort of doubt that will actually take place.

I know you have always treaded the line between responsible orthodox economic policies and the supporting the most right-wing option available, but I thought you liked the former more than the latter?

By now you should understand that "scratch a libertarian, a fascist bleeds" is a 100% accurate summary of jaichind's politics. He's the literal living embodiment of the phrase.

Aren’t Lega Nord quite economically interventionist too? I’d have thought Brothers of Italy would be more suitable for a fascist adjacent Libertarian.

Yeah, the famously economically interventionist party which *checks notes* has proposed a 15% flat income tax and also *checks notes* supports giving more autonomy to rich Northern regions.

[CumbrianLefty]

Seriously, when did "libertarians" get so attracted to ethnic chauvinism?

[Estrella]

Seriously, when did "libertarians" get so attracted to ethnic chauvinism?

It's not even a new thing. Just an example: Robert A. Heinlein* is considered one of the foremost American libertarians, and yet he wrote Starship Troopers - a book that is simultaneously one of the best sci-fi novels of all time and a deeply ideological, fanatically fascist screed.

* I always have the urge to call him Henlein; I wonder what is beind that.

[Former President tack50]

Yeah, the famously economically interventionist party which *checks notes* has proposed a 15% flat income tax and also *checks notes* supports giving more autonomy to rich Northern regions.

In fairness to Lega Nord (never thought I'd say that); giving more autonomy to the regions isn't an inherently left wing or right wing policy

Their reasoning for the extra autonomy clearly is right wing though; "Roma ladrona" is fairly clear.

[parochial boy]

Seriously, when did "libertarians" get so attracted to ethnic chauvinism?

Prepare for a bit of a hot take, but is it really surprising that an ideology devoted to fanatically worshipping the idea of social and economic hierarchy would be pretty excited by the idea of an ethnic hierarchy too?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Yeah, the famously economically interventionist party which *checks notes* has proposed a 15% flat income tax and also *checks notes* supports giving more autonomy to rich Northern regions.

In fairness to Lega Nord (never thought I'd say that); giving more autonomy to the regions isn't an inherently left wing or right wing policy

Their reasoning for the extra autonomy clearly is right wing though; "Roma ladrona" is fairly clear.

Boi, don't make me quote the sacred texts.

What applies to nations is true also for different regions within each country, since there too great inequalities often exist. At times, the inability to recognize equal human dignity leads the more developed regions in some countries to think that they can jettison the “dead weight” of poorer regions and so increase their level of consumption.

Let's put it like this:
"We are not saying we hate the terroni, but we would unplug their life support to charge our phones. BIG DIFFERENCE"

Autonomist or separatist movements in areas wealthier than the country as a whole really just cannot ever be trusted. Tale as old as time.