Crime in Germany "lowest in three decades"

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

http://www.dw.com/en/crime-rate-in-germany-lowest-since-1992-but-seehofer-still-issues-stern-warning/a-43697232

[Middle-aged Europe]

The category which saw the sharpest increase in 2017: White-collar crime by almost 30%.

Sharpest decrease: Illegal immigration, by 80%.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Sharpest decrease: Illegal immigration, by 80%.

It's because they're too busy crossing into Austria to steal Tender's bikes.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Bike theft did indeed decrease in Germany by about 10%.

[Tender Branson]

That is very comforting to the 1000s of additionally raped, murderered and otherwise abused women and other persons, as well as their relatives, by certain immigrant swamp elements over the past few years ...

But you always ignore those things. I don't.

[dead0man]

Isn't crime down in most places since 1992?  Also, is there any chance they're doing what NYC did to lower crime, ie, report less crime to the people doing the studies?  This is the country of VW afterall.

[America Needs R'hllor]

That is very comforting to the 1000s of additionally raped, murderered and otherwise abused women and other persons, as well as their relatives, by certain immigrant swamp elements over the past few years ...

But you always ignore those things. I don't.

Yeah, we should just throw out all male humans for the sake of all the women they abused. Filthy men!

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

Isn't crime down in most places since 1992?  Also, is there any chance they're doing what NYC did to lower crime, ie, report less crime to the people doing the studies?  This is the country of VW afterall.

Bingo. It makes zero sense that crime is on a downswing anywhere in Europe and N. America. The ghettoes are still as infested with lowlives as ever.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So, let me get this straight... when there's an obvious positive development which doesn't happen to confirm one's world-view, you insist that things are still bad, continue to get worse, and you look very hard for arguments to support that.

I guess this is what it really means to live in a post-factual world. Personally, I find that very dire and depressing.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Also, is there any chance they're doing what NYC did to lower crime, ie, report less crime to the people doing the studies? 

It's very unlikely, because if you had actually looked into it (which you obviously haven't, because you don't really give a sh**t) you would have noticed that among other things the reported raw figue for rape and sexual assault has gone up in 2017. However, the reports specifially notes that this increase is due to a change in the definition of what constitutes sexual assault and therefore the rape numbers are not deemed to be comparable to 2016. So, in a few particular categories there actually has been an "increase" in crime numbers due to the way they report and count the figures. A right-wing conspiracy theorist (which you seem to be develop into now, so it probably applies to you) would most likely note now that they only claim that the increase in sexual assaults is due to a change in how they count the numbers to hide and cover-up an actual spike in sexual assaults.

[dead0man]

So, let me get this straight... when there's an obvious positive development which doesn't happen to confirm one's world-view, you insist that things are still bad, continue to get worse, and you look very hard for arguments to support that.

I guess this is what it really means to live in a post-factual world. Personally, I find that very dire and depressing.

Who the hell is "insisting"?  "is there any chance" is VERY far from "insisting".  Also, I'm the most optimistic person on the board.

Also, is there any chance they're doing what NYC did to lower crime, ie, report less crime to the people doing the studies?

It's very unlikely,

which is exactly what people said about NYPD fudging the numbers too.

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that's true

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actually, I had noticed that

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nah, I'm a skeptic...of everything, including the sh**t I buy into, but whatever.  I find random attempts at insults funny, especially from a full German.  Even more so when they are very very wrong.  If your insults hit too close to home, now that might actually hurt but a German of all people calling me a right-wing conspiracy theorist....well that's just too silly.

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k....

[Middle-aged Europe]

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That particular accusation wasn't exclusively adressed to you, but also to Tender and Hofoid. But since you feel adressed, there's "a chance" for about a trillion different things. There's a chance I murdered someone last night and ate the body. But where's the evidence, proof or at the very least the indication or sign for that? And I don't see how much of an optimist you consider yourself has any relevance for the discussion.

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Again, how is this evidence, proof, indication, or a sign that this happened in this particular case? There are probably thousands of police reports published worldwide each year and so far I've got the impression that them being proven to be doctored is the exception and not the rule. Why does a singular case of crime numbers being fudged in an American, municipal police report at one point constitute indication that any randomly picked police report from anywhere around the world is fudged in the same manner despite the fact that you haven't found any specific sign in that specific police report that this is the case here? You're following a textbook example for a Trumpian line of reasoning here insofar that the U.S. president cherry-picks singular incidents of CNN having made mistakes in the past as evidence that ANY form of news coverage that criticizes his work could be considered"fake news".

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Well, at least that's honest.

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Did you? And where did you happen to find that fact about the rape & sexual assault numbers in the German police report, specifically? I'm asking because that's not in the article crabcake posted here and there's "a chance" that you just made that up, isn't there?

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You complaining about being insulted strikes me as a tad hypocritical. Look into a mirror, once in a while.

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?

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

Crabcake's megathread on crime in Germany?

[EPG]

http://www.dw.com/en/crime-rate-in-germany-lowest-since-1992-but-seehofer-still-issues-stern-warning/a-43697232

So what if crime is incredibly low if those Arabs don't even go skiing?

[swl]

If you check the article, it seems that on the other hand crime in 2016 was the highest in a decade... While it's a good news for sure, one shouldn't read too much into short-term variations.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

ITT: People rejecting facts that they don't like.

[DavidB.]

Sure, everything in Germany is fine. Jews can safely wear kippas everywhere. Christmas markets do not need Merkel Lego for visitors to be safe. The demographic development is totally cool. Immigrants aren't rioting in asylum seeker centers every two weeks, with the police having to come in order to stop people from slaughtering each other. Great job!

[EPG]

Sure, everything in Germany is fine. Jews can safely wear kippas everywhere. Christmas markets do not need Merkel Lego for visitors to be safe. The demographic development is totally cool. Immigrants aren't rioting in asylum seeker centers every two weeks, with the police having to come in order to stop people from slaughtering each other. Great job!

What's wrong with the demographic development?

Do you just hate Muslims as a demographic, i.e. all of them? Why?

[DavidB.]

Sure, everything in Germany is fine. Jews can safely wear kippas everywhere. Christmas markets do not need Merkel Lego for visitors to be safe. The demographic development is totally cool. Immigrants aren't rioting in asylum seeker centers every two weeks, with the police having to come in order to stop people from slaughtering each other. Great job!

What's wrong with the demographic development?

Do you just hate Muslims as a demographic, i.e. all of them? Why?

Peak leftism. Everyone who wants Germany to remain German, Denmark to remain Danish, the Netherlands to remain Dutch, and so on, must "hate Muslims as a demographic, i.e. all of them". It is not even an argument worth engaging with. Most Europeans want their own people to remain the dominant group in their country, and rightly so.

[EPG]

Are Muslims becoming the dominant group in Germany? Is that why the crime rate is falling?

Should Germany and the Netherlands expel or bar Muslims, Jews and anyone else not classified as "dominant"? I am guessing no?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Sure, everything in Germany is fine. Jews can safely wear kippas everywhere. Christmas markets do not need Merkel Lego for visitors to be safe. The demographic development is totally cool. Immigrants aren't rioting in asylum seeker centers every two weeks, with the police having to come in order to stop people from slaughtering each other. Great job!

What's wrong with the demographic development?

Do you just hate Muslims as a demographic, i.e. all of them? Why?

Peak leftism. Everyone who wants Germany to remain German, Denmark to remain Danish, the Netherlands to remain Dutch, and so on, must "hate Muslims as a demographic, i.e. all of them". It is not even an argument worth engaging with. Most Europeans want their own people to remain the dominant group in their country, and rightly so.

I'm sorry, David, but it's quite ironic coming from a Jew.

[DavidB.]

Are Muslims becoming the dominant group in Germany? Is that why the crime rate is falling?

Should Germany and the Netherlands expel or bar Muslims, Jews and anyone else not classified as "dominant"? I am guessing no?

I am skeptical that the actual crime rate is falling. Of course the government would say so, though.

The share of native Germans in the German population (and the share of native Dutch in the Dutch population, native Swedish in the Swedish population, etc.) will be decreasing sharply over the course of this century, and that is not how it should be. There is no problem with having minority populations, but they should not become the majority. Starting voluntary remigration programs in exchange for financial compensation would be a good idea (and deporting citizens with double citizenship who commit crimes would be wise too), but I am not for "expelling" or "barring" anybody. I do think mass immigration should be ended immediately throughout all of Europe, and I do think governments should do everything they can to make sure our birthrates go up. As AfD said: "Neue Deutsche? Machen wir selbe." "New Germans? We make them ourselves."

I'm sorry, David, but it's quite ironic coming from a Jew.

What is the actual argument you are making?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I'm sorry, David, but it's quite ironic coming from a Jew.

What is the actual argument you are making?

You know, I'm a little confused with where you stand. You're very proud of being a Jew, and then you're going with things as "our birthrates", while referring to Germans or other European nations. I wonder how you define a "German" of a "Dutch" in this particular context. Or what is a "native". Are we talking citizenships from birth or purely ethnic origin?

I'm confused because putting it this way sounds like what the very antisemites were saying about "kicking the Jews back to Palestine", "Jewish influence", "Jewish domination" and such BS. And yes, we both know there was a time Jews made up really sizeable portion of European societies and they were rightly protective of their traditions, religion and values against intolerant neighbours.

As far as I see it, you're both a Jew and a Dutch, so I can't see why you can't have somebody who's both a Dutch and a Muslim of Arab/Turkish descent. Sure, you can say it's about the degree of assimilation to European societies (which doesn't and shouldn't mean giving up your cultural heritage), but if we start to push those less assimilated out, we just don't know where it'll end. There are always going to be assholes who'll want everybody out and you'd just give then a perfect launching pod.

[DavidB.]

You know, I'm a little confused with where you stand. You're very proud of being a Jew, and then you're going with things as "our birthrates", while referring to Germans or other European nations. I wonder how you define a "German" of a "Dutch" in this particular context. Or what is a "native". Are we talking citizenships from birth or purely ethnic origin?

Yes, I am Dutch and a native (hence "our" birthrates) and a European, but obviously also Jewish and (therefore) a minority. I am not completely sure about the definitions, but it is slightly besides the point because I do not want governments to treat citizens differently based on ethnicity either way, which is a very dangerous rabbithole to go down to. Non-citizens, on the other hand, can be treated differently than citizens.

It is obvious that many immigrants are well integrated or have even assimilated into European societies. It is equally obvious that there are also many who haven't. Whose fault that is, is besides the point.

I'm confused because putting it this way sounds like what the very antisemites were saying about "kicking the Jews back to Palestine", "Jewish influence", "Jewish domination" and such BS. And yes, we both know there was a time Jews made up really sizeable portion of European societies and they were rightly protective of their traditions, religion and values against intolerant neighbours.

"Jewish influence" and "Jewish domination" did not solely refer to Jews' presence but referred to antisemitic prejudices about Jews controlling the economy, politics, etc. No such stereotypes exist about Muslims: even now, it is more often the Jews who are blamed for this by the right-wing fringes than Muslims.

The question whether it was right for, say, Poles or Ukrainians to think there were too many Jews in their city is a painful one, also because we know the course of history. I agree with early Zionist thinkers that the situation in which Jews were so numerous outside Israel, without having our own state, was not good and bound to lead to tensions: such cultural differences between different sizeable groups always lead to tensions. In no way does this excuse the way Jewish communities were terrorized on a regular basis, culminating in the horrors of the Shoah. Fortunately we have moved beyond that stage after WW2, and fortunately no minorities in Europe are being treated that way anymore.

There are parallels but there are also very important differences between the pre-WW2 situation of Jews and the current situation of minorities in Europe. Jews had been in Europe for centuries and centuries, and antisemitic prejudices towards Jews had been spread throughout the continent from the Middle Ages onwards. I also don't think Jews committed terror attacks on a regular basis, or were generally overrepresented in the crime statistics, etc. Anyhow, it is a different history.

As far as I see it, you're both a Jew and a Dutch, so I can't see why you can't have somebody who's both a Dutch and a Muslim of Arab/Turkish descent. Sure, you can say it's about the degree of assimilation to European societies (which doesn't and shouldn't mean giving up your cultural heritage), but if we start to push those less assimilated out, we just don't know where it'll end. There are always going to be assholes who'll want everybody out and you'd just give then a perfect launching pod.

I wholeheartedly do think one can be both truly Dutch and Kurdish or Turkish or Moroccan or whatever. I know such people. The degree of integration/assimilation matters here. I would not consider those who proclaim their love for Erdogan and spit on the Dutch flag and protest the Dutch police to be truly Dutch, and they themselves would agree. Still, they are citizens and they should be treated equally by the government and we will have to deal with their antics. But at least we can make sure not to repeat the mistake and to end mass immigration, and we can kick out those who have double citizenship (whether it's Sweden or Morocco, I don't care) and commit crimes. And we can root out toxic schools and organizations that poison the minds of young people with a migration background.

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

Sure, everything in Germany is fine. Jews can safely wear kippas everywhere. Christmas markets do not need Merkel Lego for visitors to be safe. The demographic development is totally cool. Immigrants aren't rioting in asylum seeker centers every two weeks, with the police having to come in order to stop people from slaughtering each other. Great job!

Seriously, anyone can fudge crime numbers. However, imported violence is real.