Anti-Semitism in UK Labour megathread

[ON Progressive]

Also, some new Corbyn comments from 2013 have emerged:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6087783/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-said-British-Zionists-no-sense-English-irony.html?__twitter_impression=true

That’s shockingly bad. Corbyn should’ve gone months ago, and this just makes it even more urgent.

[Blair]

It really is depressing; the conflation between Israel/Palestine and antisemitism means that for vast swathes of Labour this issue has now become about trying to 'shut down free speech'. The drip drip nature of the stories, and the fact that that they generally require a bit of explaining meaning that there hasn't really been much of a big cut through- this has been going on for nearly two years now!

It gets rather repetitive to hear MP's keep saying 'this is awful, I stand in solidarity with the Jewish Community'. If MP's think that Corbyn is antisemitic, or that he is happy with antisemitism, that there really is no alternative other than to challenge him for the Leadership, or resign the Whip.

[cp]

It really is depressing; the conflation between Israel/Palestine and antisemitism means that for vast swathes of Labour this issue has now become about trying to 'shut down free speech'. The drip drip nature of the stories, and the fact that that they generally require a bit of explaining meaning that there hasn't really been much of a big cut through- this has been going on for nearly two years now!

It gets rather repetitive to hear MP's keep saying 'this is awful, I stand in solidarity with the Jewish Community'. If MP's think that Corbyn is antisemitic, or that he is happy with antisemitism, that there really is no alternative other than to challenge him for the Leadership, or resign the Whip.

That's kind of the crux of the whole issue about Corbyn's personal beliefs (as opposed to the wider issue of Labour's internal policies for dealing with hate speech): his words and actions have skirted the line between legitimate, albeit sometimes non-mainstream, criticism of Israeli policies and potential dog whistles for antisemitism. If you're inclined to suspect Corbyn holds antisemitic beliefs then what's been reported on is all the evidence of his guilt you need. If you're inclined to believe Corbyn's not antisemitic, or at least that his heart's in the right place, then what's been reported leaves well more than enough room to defend him.

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before. There's less engagement with the circumstances of what he said and a quicker leap to outright condemnation of (read: conflation with) antisemitism. It's reminiscent of the pearl clutching many in the LibDems/Labour do whenever Boris Johnson makes one of his many loaded 'gaffs'.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It really is depressing; the conflation between Israel/Palestine and antisemitism means that for vast swathes of Labour this issue has now become about trying to 'shut down free speech'. The drip drip nature of the stories, and the fact that that they generally require a bit of explaining meaning that there hasn't really been much of a big cut through- this has been going on for nearly two years now!

It gets rather repetitive to hear MP's keep saying 'this is awful, I stand in solidarity with the Jewish Community'. If MP's think that Corbyn is antisemitic, or that he is happy with antisemitism, that there really is no alternative other than to challenge him for the Leadership, or resign the Whip.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

I'm sick of hearing leftists who jump at the slightest of dog whistle targeted at African Americans or Muslims suddenly so deaf to vicious anti-Jewish dogwhistles. Zionism is Jewish Nationalism- if Corbyn hates them, he believes Jews have no right for self-determination. That's discriminatory against Jews. Furthermore, if I got a penny for every time a nazi like Duke or a leftist antisemite like Corbyn used the word "Zionist" as a dogwhistle I'd be the new (((George Soros))) or (((media elite))). Just look at this tweet:

https://twitter.com/NickGriffinBU/status/1032688288480591872?s=19

This is such a blatant dogwhistle that it's painful. Stop looking for reasons to excuse Corbyn, or Ilhan Omar and any of the rest of their ilk because of "conflating" Judaism and antisemitism. Would it be legitimate if someone asked to stop conflating African Americans and "drug dealers" when the latter are used as dogwhistles by the far-right in the U.S.?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

There's a lot of conflation of Israelis and Jews going on all right, but it's all on the part of Corbyn and his supporters.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I kind of feel like a protagonist in one of those Monkey's Paw/Be Careful What You wish for fables. Wish for a left wing leader, and you get them; but the cosmic balance grants you a dude who is at best a complete moron and at worst an outright bigot.

[Silent Hunter]

We've got a video of him basically arguing that Israel was a colonialist (and by extension racist) creation, which is the one part of the IHRA examples Labour won't adopt....

[Intell]

Ignorance is rife on the intertwined link between Judaism and Zionism, Corbyn has failed to recognize that. While I stand by the comment that Corbyn is no at all anti-semitic, his attitude towards Israel-Palestine shows that he has a black-and-white view of Zionism vs Palestinian Rights that is unhelpful in the unity of the two groups and wholly ignorant.

Opposing Zionism is racist if we are going by the most encompassing definition, that the Jewish people have the right to live in Palestine. Noam Chomsky identifies as a Zionist under this definition.

Then you can get into Zionism definition #2, that the Jewish people have the right to statehood in Palestine. I feel that yes they do, but from a left-wing perspective, it is understandable why many/some oppose a Jewish state, as they oppose states based on a race/religion. The problems with this hower show a non-understanding to the need for a Jewish state to protect from persecution and provide a safe haven for refuge for the Jewish people.

Now if you support settlements (especially) and disproportionate bombings in Gaza and other discriminatory practices you are as racist as those opposing Zionism #1.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Hot historical take: A lot of this could have been avoided if several Arab states hadn’t declared war on the new State of Israel out of their own nasty ulterior motives. When they inevitably lost and started actively supporting the violent Palestinian Arab exile opposition, they convinced both Israel that their very survival would always be threatened (not unfounded, given the Holocaust just a few years before...) and the Palestinian armed resistance that they would always have a fighting chance in their armed resistance. Not good!

Anyway, carry on.

[dead0man]

Agreed, except for the "inevitably" part.  It was anything but.  Religious people see it as a "hand of God" thing.  I don't know about all that, I think the Arab states being unable to wage modern warfare and the Israelis fighting for, not just their lives, not just the lives of their loved ones who couldn't fight, but for the future of their people.  The Arabs were fighting because of hatred, and that will only get you so far.

[cp]

Ignorance is rife on the intertwined link between Judaism and Zionism, Corbyn has failed to recognize that. While I stand by the comment that Corbyn is no at all anti-semitic, his attitude towards Israel-Palestine shows that he has a black-and-white view of Zionism vs Palestinian Rights that is unhelpful in the unity of the two groups and wholly ignorant.

Opposing Zionism is racist if we are going by the most encompassing definition, that the Jewish people have the right to live in Palestine. Noam Chomsky identifies as a Zionist under this definition.

Then you can get into Zionism definition #2, that the Jewish people have the right to statehood in Palestine. I feel that yes they do, but from a left-wing perspective, it is understandable why many/some oppose a Jewish state, as they oppose states based on a race/religion. The problems with this hower show a non-understanding to the need for a Jewish state to protect from persecution and provide a safe haven for refuge for the Jewish people.

Now if you support settlements (especially) and disproportionate bombings in Gaza and other discriminatory practices you are as racist as those opposing Zionism #1.

Excellent points. From my reading of Corbyn's statements and speeches, he fits quite comfortably into the postcolonialist tradition common among social democrats around the world (Jack Layton, Ralph Nader, Segolene Royal, etc.; his views would be unremarkable in most of Scandanaivia). You're right that Corbyn seems rather Manichean on the issue, but it's worth noting his rhetoric has always headlined reconciliation and peace over any all-or-nothing propositions or solutions.

It's not surprising these sorts of views provoke such a vehement response among ardent supporters of Israel. At its core, postcolonialist/antiracist critiques of international relations undermine the legitimacy of any state that has its roots in the nationalism and imperialism of the 16th-19th centuries. Like Canada, the US, Australia, as well as the colonizing powers of Europe, Israel is imbricated in a system that originally justified its existence in explicitly racial terms.

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

Case in point.

[Silent Hunter]

Now if you support settlements (especially) and disproportionate bombings in Gaza and other discriminatory practices you are as racist as those opposing Zionism #1.

And I don't. However, too many assume that Zionism #2 support is Zionism #3 support i.e. Israel can do anything it likes.

[Silent Hunter]

At its core, postcolonialist/antiracist critiques of international relations undermine the legitimacy of any state that has its roots in the nationalism and imperialism of the 16th-19th centuries. Like Canada, the US, Australia, as well as the colonizing powers of Europe, Israel is imbricated in a system that originally justified its existence in explicitly racial terms.

That kind of applies to near every country on the planet. Including Venezuela, a particular favourite of the far left. Or Zimbabwe.

[Blair]

It really is depressing; the conflation between Israel/Palestine and antisemitism means that for vast swathes of Labour this issue has now become about trying to 'shut down free speech'. The drip drip nature of the stories, and the fact that that they generally require a bit of explaining meaning that there hasn't really been much of a big cut through- this has been going on for nearly two years now!

It gets rather repetitive to hear MP's keep saying 'this is awful, I stand in solidarity with the Jewish Community'. If MP's think that Corbyn is antisemitic, or that he is happy with antisemitism, that there really is no alternative other than to challenge him for the Leadership, or resign the Whip.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

I'm sick of hearing leftists who jump at the slightest of dog whistle targeted at African Americans or Muslims suddenly so deaf to vicious anti-Jewish dogwhistles. Zionism is Jewish Nationalism- if Corbyn hates them, he believes Jews have no right for self-determination. That's discriminatory against Jews. Furthermore, if I got a penny for every time a nazi like Duke or a leftist antisemite like Corbyn used the word "Zionist" as a dogwhistle I'd be the new (((George Soros))) or (((media elite))). Just look at this tweet:

https://twitter.com/NickGriffinBU/status/1032688288480591872?s=19

This is such a blatant dogwhistle that it's painful. Stop looking for reasons to excuse Corbyn, or Ilhan Omar and any of the rest of their ilk because of "conflating" Judaism and antisemitism. Would it be legitimate if someone asked to stop conflating African Americans and "drug dealers" when the latter are used as dogwhistles by the far-right in the U.S.?

I'm agreeing with the exact point you're making. I'm just repeating what I've seen many Labour members say.

As posters on here will know I've never been a Corbynite, and I've certainly never defend, or deflect from the antisemitism in Labour.

[cp]

At its core, postcolonialist/antiracist critiques of international relations undermine the legitimacy of any state that has its roots in the nationalism and imperialism of the 16th-19th centuries. Like Canada, the US, Australia, as well as the colonizing powers of Europe, Israel is imbricated in a system that originally justified its existence in explicitly racial terms.

That kind of applies to near every country on the planet. Including Venezuela, a particular favourite of the far left. Or Zimbabwe.

Exactly. The point is that the entire international system is embedded with beliefs about racial hierarchies and will to power nonsense that derives from the experience of colonialism. There's no more reason to say Israel is a 'racist' country than there is to say Venezuela or Canada or Belarus is.

However, that's not to say that some governments, like the Israeli one of late, will tacitly or explicitly invoke race to legitimize themselves or specific policies they enact. In that respect, the Zionism #2 is a chief target of postcolonial critiques in a way that Zionism #1 isn't.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Maybe what Labour should do is confirm that there is nothing wrong with Zionism, but that we oppose Revisionary Zionism? Could that solve the problem?

[Silent Hunter]

Maybe what Labour should do is confirm that there is nothing wrong with Zionism, but that we oppose Revisionary Zionism? Could that solve the problem?

That and Corbyn could take a trip to Yad Vashem.

[DavidB.]

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

Case in point.

Love the tone policing towards a literal Israeli when this debate is ultimately about whether it's cool for people to say Israel doesn't have a right to exist (hint: it isn't).

So hypocritical for Europeans to argue that Israel wouldn't have a right to exist in the first place, when they live comfortably in nation-states with quite a history themselves. And for Brits to argue that Israel is bad because it would be rooted in colonialism takes a special amount of historical illiteracy and arrogance, on quite a few levels. I would love to know Corbyn's opinion of the Irgun.

[cp]

Maybe what Labour should do is confirm that there is nothing wrong with Zionism, but that we oppose Revisionary Zionism? Could that solve the problem?

That and Corbyn could take a trip to Yad Vashem.

At this point that would probably backfire. Corbyn would be accused of making a showy stunt, which would be a reasonable accusation. It would be like Prince Harry's visit to Auschwitz after he was caught wearing a Nazi armband at a costume party.

[cp]

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

Case in point.

Love the tone policing towards a literal Israeli when this debate is ultimately about whether it's cool for people to say Israel doesn't have a right to exist (hint: it isn't).

So hypocritical for Europeans to argue that Israel wouldn't have a right to exist in the first place, when they live comfortably in nation-states with quite a history themselves. And for Brits to argue that Israel is bad because it would be rooted in colonialism takes a special amount of historical illiteracy and arrogance, on quite a few levels. I would love to know Corbyn's opinion of the Irgun.

Love how you assumed I'm British based on an Atlas avatar.

[DavidB.]

Love how you assumed I'm British based on an Atlas avatar.

Is this the Atlas version of "did you just assume my gender"? Yes, if you're having a UK avatar and flag I'm going to assume you're British. If you aren't, my point still stands for, I don't know, much of the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn himself - which, with all due respect, seems quite a bit more pertinent to the topic at hand than your position.

[cp]

Love how you assumed I'm British based on an Atlas avatar.

Is this the Atlas version of "did you just assume my gender"? Yes, if you're having a UK avatar and flag I'm going to assume you're British. If you aren't, my point still stands for, I don't know, much of the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn himself - which, with all due respect, seems quite a bit more pertinent to the topic at hand than your position.

You didn't seem to think so two posts ago. And, with all due respect, Parrot seems more than capable of arguing his points without you hopping in to make baseless ad hominem attacks against his interlocutors.

Anyhoo, as Intell rightly pointed out, there's a spectrum of opinions about what constitutes Zionism/"Israel's right to exist". One can call into question aspects of the current state of Israel without implicating the entire project - something that Corbyn has been quite adamant about over the years, for the record.

[DavidB.]

You didn't seem to think so two posts ago. And, with all due respect, Parrot seems more than capable of arguing his points without you hopping in to make baseless ad hominem attacks against his interlocutors.

The first paragraph of that post was dedicated to you. The second one wasn't. Parrotguy is absolutely capable of arguing for his points, and I am absolutely capable of calling you out on your stupid tone policing from your comfortable chair in God knows which safe and prosperous country that's not Israel.

And as Intell rightly pointed out, there's a spectrum of opinions about what constitutes Zionism/"Israel's right to exist". One can call into question aspects of the current state of Israel without implicating the entire project - something that Corbyn has been quite adamant about over the years, for the record.

This means nothing. Yes, one can call into question aspects of Israeli policy, just as one can call into question aspects of British policy, such as Brexit, which is a disaster. One cannot call into question Israel's right to exist, just like one cannot call into question Britain's right to exist. To do the latter would be considered ludicrous; the fact that the former is even a thing shows people's antisemitic double standards. And if Corbyn would say exactly this, I think all problems would be gone.

[DavidB.]

You know what, I'm not even gonna argue here anymore. This thread is absolutely infested with antisemites of the worst kind. Even actual Nazis are less annoying and intellectually dishonest than some of the people who pop in here on the regular. Absolutely disgusting.

[cp]

The first paragraph of that post was dedicated to you. The second one wasn't. Parrotguy is absolutely capable of arguing for his points, and I am absolutely capable of calling you out on your stupid tone policing from your comfortable chair in God knows which safe and prosperous country that's not Israel.

Clearly you're not, as you keep basing your assessment of my arguments around my personal circumstances instead of their merit.

This means nothing. Yes, one can call into question aspects of Israeli policy, just as one can call into question aspects of British policy, such as Brexit, which is a disaster. One cannot call into question Israel's right to exist, just like one cannot call into question Britain's right to exist. To do the latter would be considered ludicrous; the fact that the former is even a thing shows people's antisemitic double standards. And if Corbyn would say exactly this, I think all problems would be gone.

Corbyn's never called into question Israel's right to exist. The accusations against him have exclusively consisted of:

- Associating too closely with those who do (while in the pursuit of reconciliation),
- Responding ambiguously or clumsily to antisemitic statements by others in the Labour Party, and
- Being insufficiently deferential to the adamantly pro-Israeli consensus that predominates among most Western governments.

None of these point to Corbyn holding the kind of antisemitic beliefs his detractors impute to him, but instead, as I've argued, that he's articulating a non-mainstream but legitimate intellectual argument about Israel and Palestine.