L10.7.3 Act to Repeal the Balanced Budget Requirement (Voting)

[Sirius_]

Act to Repeal the Balanced Budget Requirement

Section 16. No budget or appropriation bill shall be passed by the legislative power of this Region for which the totaled expenditures exceed the sum of all revenue collected in the previous year.

This amendment would take effect immediately.

Author/Sponsor: Ninja0428

I open the floor for debate. The sponsor has 36 hours to argue in favor of this bill.

[Sirius_]

Balancing the budget isn't always the most important thing. Providing important public services to the people can be more important than having no debt and government debt isn't always a bad thing. It is possible to maintain a strong economy with government debt. Lincoln isn currently looking at a deficit of about $5 billion and while I would like for the budget to be balanced it currently seems more important to maintain our government programs.

[Wells]

I agree that deficits and debts aren't always a bad thing, but I do think they can be a problem when they get too big. Perhaps we should introduce a debt ceiling. Thoughts?

[Sirius_]

A debt ceiling seems like a good idea in theory but we saw how in the old United States the federal debt ceiling was really only used as a way for congress to force the president to do what they want and would inevitably be raised every time the ceiling was reached anyway. Is there a way to prevent this?

[Wells]

A debt ceiling seems like a good idea in theory but we saw how in the old United States the federal debt ceiling was really only used as a way for congress to force the president to do what they want and would inevitably be raised every time the ceiling was reached anyway. Is there a way to prevent this?

I'm not exactly sure how we would prevent that. I suppose in Atlasia everyone is usually nicer to each other, so the problem of the governor being forced to do something shouldn't be a problem. This also ties in to the fact that you'll notice in Atlasia most things pass with near unanimous support of Congress or the Assembly (despite what on paper looks like an ideologically diverse legislature) and the President or Governor signing almost everything. (There are exceptions, but they are rare.) I could go on about how this affects things, but one thing you mentioned in your post that I'm sure would come true is that it would just be raised every time. However, I'm sure safeguards for that could be put in place.

With all that about unanimous decisions, I support this bill (I know it's ironic). I can always set a debt ceiling in a future bill, and you can be sure I will.

[Sirius_]

Are there any further comments to be made?

[fhtagn]

Balancing the budget isn't always the most important thing. Providing important public services to the people can be more important than having no debt and government debt isn't always a bad thing. It is possible to maintain a strong economy with government debt. Lincoln isn currently looking at a deficit of about $5 billion and while I would like for the budget to be balanced it currently seems more important to maintain our government programs.

So is there going to be any check in place to ensure that there isn't a ridiculous amount of spending and letting the debt get out of control?

It seems far too often people just use this argument as a cop out to push expensive programs they want but are too lazy to come up with a responsible way to fund it, so they let the decifit build up for someone else to deal with later.

[Sirius_]

All members please vote aye, nay, or abstain. The vote will last for 48 hours or until all members have voted.

Aye

[fhtagn]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

[Sirius_]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

[fhtagn]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

[Sirius_]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

We agreed to vote before the question was asked, and Mr. Wells has already expressed a desire to create a new solution.

[fhtagn]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

We agreed to vote before the question was asked, and Mr. Wells has already expressed a desire to create a new solution.

You did not agree to vote before the question was asked, and it can clearly be seen in this thread.

Seriously, just admit you didn't feel like answering. Don't lie when the proof is right there for all to see.

[Sirius_]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

We agreed to vote before the question was asked, and Mr. Wells has already expressed a desire to create a new solution.

You did not agree to vote before the question was asked, and it can clearly be seen in this thread.

Seriously, just admit you didn't feel like answering. Don't lie when the proof is right there for all to see.

The assembly agreed to have a vote before I made the post, and the question has already been answered.

[fhtagn]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

We agreed to vote before the question was asked, and Mr. Wells has already expressed a desire to create a new solution.

You did not agree to vote before the question was asked, and it can clearly be seen in this thread.

Seriously, just admit you didn't feel like answering. Don't lie when the proof is right there for all to see.

The assembly agreed to have a vote before I made the post, and the question has already been answered.

Please point out where in the thread the assembly agreed to have a vote (I'll help you out, it doesn't exist).

Well, at least you're proving my cop out/lazy legislating point.

[Sirius_]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

We agreed to vote before the question was asked, and Mr. Wells has already expressed a desire to create a new solution.

You did not agree to vote before the question was asked, and it can clearly be seen in this thread.

Seriously, just admit you didn't feel like answering. Don't lie when the proof is right there for all to see.

The assembly agreed to have a vote before I made the post, and the question has already been answered.

Please point out where in the thread the assembly agreed to have a vote (I'll help you out, it doesn't exist).

Well, at least you're proving my cop out/lazy legislating point.

We made the agreement in Discord. You're question has been answered. I'm not here to have a petty argument with someone from another state.

[fhtagn]

Or just ignore what I asked instead of address it, because that's cool, I guess. Really looks good for Lincoln citizens when their elected officials can't be bothered to be open about their intentions.

This has to go to referendum, everybody gets to voice their opinion there.

You still deliberately ignored a question that was asked.

What are you afraid of? It's a simple question, one that Lincoln citizens deserve to know, and as an elected official in the region, you should be able to openly answer.

We agreed to vote before the question was asked, and Mr. Wells has already expressed a desire to create a new solution.

You did not agree to vote before the question was asked, and it can clearly be seen in this thread.

Seriously, just admit you didn't feel like answering. Don't lie when the proof is right there for all to see.

The assembly agreed to have a vote before I made the post, and the question has already been answered.

Please point out where in the thread the assembly agreed to have a vote (I'll help you out, it doesn't exist).

Well, at least you're proving my cop out/lazy legislating point.

We made the agreement in Discord. You're question has been answered. I'm not here to have a petty argument with someone from another state.

I'm standing up for Atlasians in the Lincoln Region, several of whom would like to know the answers to questions like the one I presented.

And "we made the agreement in Discord" is some pretty lousy and shady legislating. If you're no longer going to accept questions/comments and go to a vote, it needs to take place on the actual thread so that others, including concerned citizens of your region, have a chance to let their voices be heard.

[Wells]

Nay.

After some thinking, I decided that the best way to establish a maximum allowed deficit would be a through the Constitutional Amendment I introduced. But we only need one Amendment, so this is unnecessary now.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

Nay.

[Sirius_]

By a vote of 1-2-0 the bill fails. I agree with consolidating it into one bill.

[Terry the Fat Shark]

In my opinion, it should be up to the legislators at work, and nobody else, how they want to debate and vote on bills. Fun fact that some in this thread may not know of, #southernchat on mibbit was originally created so we could discuss bills and debate them on mibbit. Furthermore, Atlasia has a rich history of discussing bills heavily and legislating on mibbit, discord, and other forms of chats online! There is absolutely nothing wrong with legislating and debating on discord and mibbit for that matter, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to complain about people actually being active for once. So long as everything important, like how they were voted and what was decided about a bill is made public, there should be no problem!

[fhtagn]

In my opinion, it should be up to the legislators at work, and nobody else, how they want to debate and vote on bills. Fun fact that some in this thread may not know of, #southernchat on mibbit was originally created so we could discuss bills and debate them on mibbit. Furthermore, Atlasia has a rich history of discussing bills heavily and legislating on mibbit, discord, and other forms of chats online! There is absolutely nothing wrong with legislating and debating on discord and mibbit for that matter, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to complain about people actually being active for once. So long as everything important, like how they were voted and what was decided about a bill is made public, there should be no problem!

It's one thing to debate and discuss the bills, it's another when there was a motion for a vote that does not exist anywhere on the thread but used as a poor excuse when called out for not indicating so on here. It's a slippery slope. What's next: not even introducing and signing bills on the board, but when someone says something "oh it's already signed into law, we did it on discord"? At absolute minimum the motions should still be taking place on here (and even then what was discussed should at least be referenced prior to the vote).

On top of it, not everyone is on discord. So Lincoln citizens who want to know whether or not their elected officials have their interests in mind don't get to see what they are doing until the vote. There are some in here who have argued about transparency, but when it actually comes down to it, they don't actually practice what they preach.  

[Terry the Fat Shark]

In my opinion, it should be up to the legislators at work, and nobody else, how they want to debate and vote on bills. Fun fact that some in this thread may not know of, #southernchat on mibbit was originally created so we could discuss bills and debate them on mibbit. Furthermore, Atlasia has a rich history of discussing bills heavily and legislating on mibbit, discord, and other forms of chats online! There is absolutely nothing wrong with legislating and debating on discord and mibbit for that matter, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to complain about people actually being active for once. So long as everything important, like how they were voted and what was decided about a bill is made public, there should be no problem!

It's one thing to debate and discuss the bills, it's another when there was a motion for a vote that does not exist anywhere on the thread but used as a poor excuse when called out for not indicating so on here.

It's a slippery slope. What's next: not even introducing and signing bills on the board, but when someone says something "oh it's already signed into law, we did it on discord"? At absolute minimum the motions should still be taking place on here.

On top of it, not everyone is on discord. So Lincoln citizens who want to know whether or not their elected officials have their interests in mind don't get to see what they are doing until the vote. There are some in here who have argued about transparency, but when it actually comes down to it, they don't actually practice what they preach. 

Then Lincoln citizens can ask for logs and they can be provided, pretty easy. IDK why people have to make such an easy thing so difficult.....

[fhtagn]

In my opinion, it should be up to the legislators at work, and nobody else, how they want to debate and vote on bills. Fun fact that some in this thread may not know of, #southernchat on mibbit was originally created so we could discuss bills and debate them on mibbit. Furthermore, Atlasia has a rich history of discussing bills heavily and legislating on mibbit, discord, and other forms of chats online! There is absolutely nothing wrong with legislating and debating on discord and mibbit for that matter, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to complain about people actually being active for once. So long as everything important, like how they were voted and what was decided about a bill is made public, there should be no problem!

It's one thing to debate and discuss the bills, it's another when there was a motion for a vote that does not exist anywhere on the thread but used as a poor excuse when called out for not indicating so on here.

It's a slippery slope. What's next: not even introducing and signing bills on the board, but when someone says something "oh it's already signed into law, we did it on discord"? At absolute minimum the motions should still be taking place on here.

On top of it, not everyone is on discord. So Lincoln citizens who want to know whether or not their elected officials have their interests in mind don't get to see what they are doing until the vote. There are some in here who have argued about transparency, but when it actually comes down to it, they don't actually practice what they preach.  

Then Lincoln citizens can ask for logs and they can be provided, pretty easy. IDK why people have to make such an easy thing so difficult.....

The main issue I have with this is that there was a motion for a final vote that didn't exist on this thread, and when called out on it, the response was "well we agreed to go to a vote on discord". That's not acceptable. If there was a motion, and they were planning to proceed with it and close off debate, they need to indicate so on the thread.

Using your words to describe this simple task, "IDK why people have to make such an easy thing so difficult....."

[Terry the Fat Shark]

In my opinion, it should be up to the legislators at work, and nobody else, how they want to debate and vote on bills. Fun fact that some in this thread may not know of, #southernchat on mibbit was originally created so we could discuss bills and debate them on mibbit. Furthermore, Atlasia has a rich history of discussing bills heavily and legislating on mibbit, discord, and other forms of chats online! There is absolutely nothing wrong with legislating and debating on discord and mibbit for that matter, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to complain about people actually being active for once. So long as everything important, like how they were voted and what was decided about a bill is made public, there should be no problem!

It's one thing to debate and discuss the bills, it's another when there was a motion for a vote that does not exist anywhere on the thread but used as a poor excuse when called out for not indicating so on here.

It's a slippery slope. What's next: not even introducing and signing bills on the board, but when someone says something "oh it's already signed into law, we did it on discord"? At absolute minimum the motions should still be taking place on here.

On top of it, not everyone is on discord. So Lincoln citizens who want to know whether or not their elected officials have their interests in mind don't get to see what they are doing until the vote. There are some in here who have argued about transparency, but when it actually comes down to it, they don't actually practice what they preach. 

Then Lincoln citizens can ask for logs and they can be provided, pretty easy. IDK why people have to make such an easy thing so difficult.....

The main issue I have with this is that there was a motion for a final vote that didn't exist on this thread, and when called out on it, the response was "well we agreed to go to a vote on discord". That's not acceptable. If there was a motion, and they were planning to proceed with it and close off debate, they need to indicate so on the thread.

Like you said, "IDK why people have to make such an easy thing so difficult....."

There is nothing wrong with that imo so long as it is made clear on this thread once asked, you asked, they told you. Problem solved.