is the whole idea of salvation through faith alone evil?

[HillGoose]

"if you give up your ability to question things and think critically, and do whatever I say, you'll receive endless happiness someday"

it sounds like Nazi Germany or North Korea.

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

I don't know if it's evil, but it's insanely idiotic. this would basically mean that Hitler could have gone to heaven if he had repented and "accepted Christ into his heart", whereas a great man whose only "sin" was not believing in God could be in hell right now.

[RFayette 🇻🇦]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

[HillGoose]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

[TJ in Oregon]

Being a Catholic I obviously don't believe in sola fide; however, the idea deserves a little more thought than it's been given here. For starters, most Protestants don't literally mean simply to say a prayer and it no longer matters what you do. Instead they think that if you really accept Jesus in your heart, you will do the right thing anyway, and that part is of secondary importance at best. Many will also argue that if you don't do the right thing afterwards, at least for the most part, then you never really believed in the first place.

Others will take a more nuanced approach and say that faith is not a single event in time but a continual state of saying yes to God. This last definition comes close to the Catholic understanding of grace as something that can be lost through sin. We also believe it is unmerited on our part, but that we can reject it through sinning. Thus the Catholic understanding is not simply that we must believe but that we must also change our lives to act in accordance with that faith. An astute individual will notice that depending on the precise definition of these terms, the difference between Catholics and Protestants may be very small in this regard.

It is also worth defining "faith". The traditional understanding of faith is a rational act of the will to place one's trust in another or accept the testimony of a witness and take them at their word. So, for example, when I get on a plane I place faith in the pilot to be able to safely fly me to my destination. That faith is rational; the pilot is licensed and flying for a commercial airline, so I have reason to think I should place faith in the pilot. But it is still placing my faith in someone beyond myself and what I can conclusively derive with my own intellect. Faith is not simply a belief in the existence of an entity.

[TJ in Oregon]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

Sinned at all. That we all deserve to burn in hell is part of the point.

[Lechasseur]

Being a Catholic I obviously don't believe in sola fide; however, the idea deserves a little more thought than it's been given here. For starters, most Protestants don't literally mean simply to say a prayer and it no longer matters what you do. Instead they think that if you really accept Jesus in your heart, you will do the right thing anyway, and that part is of secondary importance at best. Many will also argue that if you don't do the right thing afterwards, at least for the most part, then you never really believed in the first place.

Others will take a more nuanced approach and say that faith is not a single event in time but a continual state of saying yes to God. This last definition comes close to the Catholic understanding of grace as something that can be lost through sin. We also believe it is unmerited on our part, but that we can reject it through sinning. Thus the Catholic understanding is not simply that we must believe but that we must also change our lives to act in accordance with that faith. An astute individual will notice that depending on the precise definition of these terms, the difference between Catholics and Protestants may be very small in this regard.

It is also worth defining "faith". The traditional understanding of faith is a rational act of the will to place one's trust in another or accept the testimony of a witness and take them at their word. So, for example, when I get on a plane I place faith in the pilot to be able to safely fly me to my destination. That faith is rational; the pilot is licensed and flying for a commercial airline, so I have reason to think I should place faith in the pilot. But it is still placing my faith in someone beyond myself and what I can conclusively derive with my own intellect. Faith is not simply a belief in the existence of an entity.

I think this explains ''salvation through faith alone'' very well.

[Torie]

I watched a documentary on Luther, and became more sympathetic to the sola fide doctrine than I had been. Why? Because it deemphasizes doing good works out of fear of going to hell, and rather focuses on the idea that by virtue of faith, one will be inspired to follow Christ's example and become a better person here on earth. Using the carrot rather than the whip to try to improve behavior is more appealing to me.

[Lechasseur]

I watched a documentary on Luther, and became more sympathetic to the sola fide doctrine than I had been. Why? Because it deemphasizes doing good works out of fear of going to hell, and rather focuses on the idea that by virtue of faith, one will be inspired to follow Christ's example and become a better person here on earth. Using the carrot rather than the whip to try to improve behavior is more appealing to me.

My brother's an evangelical, and when I told him about TJ's post he basically said what you saw in the documentary.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I certainly view it as sociologically dangerous.

[HillGoose]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

Sinned at all. That we all deserve to burn in hell is part of the point.

not everyone does.

i deserve to burn in hell and my mother deserves it even more than I do, but not everyone does.

[RFayette 🇻🇦]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

Sinned at all. That we all deserve to burn in hell is part of the point.

not everyone does.

i deserve to burn in hell and my mother deserves it even more than I do, but not everyone does.

How do you know this?

[DC Al Fine]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

Sinned at all. That we all deserve to burn in hell is part of the point.

not everyone does.

i deserve to burn in hell and my mother deserves it even more than I do, but not everyone does.

How do you know this?

[DC Al Fine]

OP and Texarkana, you have a lot of assumptions in this thread that are either plain wrong or require a lot of fleshing out.

"if you give up your ability to question things and think critically, and do whatever I say, you'll receive endless happiness someday"

it sounds like Nazi Germany or North Korea.

I don't know if it's evil, but it's insanely idiotic. this would basically mean that Hitler could have gone to heaven if he had repented and "accepted Christ into his heart", whereas a great man whose only "sin" was not believing in God could be in hell right now.

Neither of these are remotely fair descriptions of Sola Fide as TJ pointed out. America's Sweetheart's ideas about sin and repentance, and HillGoose's about heaven and "deserving hell", don't remotely line up with Protestant orthodoxy either. In short, criticizing justification by faith alone is fair, but you should criticize the actual teachings of the Protestant reformers, not these silly caricatures.

[HillGoose]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

Sinned at all. That we all deserve to burn in hell is part of the point.

not everyone does.

i deserve to burn in hell and my mother deserves it even more than I do, but not everyone does.

How do you know this?

because i might be God but idk really.

[SingingAnalyst]

As a rigid doctrine I believe it to be deeply flawed. As a principle, I believe it has merit (and I say this as a Catholic). Whatever wrongdoings someone has done, I believe they have an opportunity to experience a change of heart (repentance, which I believe is a part of genuine faith: I think it is telling that Jesus said "Repent and believe", rather than "believe and repent" - Mark 1:15). This change of heart, if genuine, will take the form of making (or at least attempting to make) things right.

I think the essence of "faith alone" is that there is nothing we can do to "deserve" salvation; it is the work of G-d alone. What role does free will have in such a change of heart? Frankly, I have no idea.

As a statistician, do I believe the "six-sigma" rule applies to "whatever wrongdoings" someone has done? Probably.

[HillGoose]

why should humans not rebel against God? Is it wrong to rebel against Kim Jong Un? Or Hitler?

I'm not saying God is evil. But if God is really a being with the ability to watch you for your whole life, judge every one of your actions, and then condemn you if they aren't what he likes, then why should you support that? It's like worshiping totalitarianism.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

why should humans not rebel against God? Is it wrong to rebel against Kim Jong Un? Or Hitler?

I'm not saying God is evil. But if God is really a being with the ability to watch you for your whole life, judge every one of your actions, and then condemn you if they aren't what he likes, then why should you support that? It's like worshiping totalitarianism.

God, Kim Jong Un, Hitler. One of these is not like the others...

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

why should humans not rebel against God? Is it wrong to rebel against Kim Jong Un? Or Hitler?

I'm not saying God is evil. But if God is really a being with the ability to watch you for your whole life, judge every one of your actions, and then condemn you if they aren't what he likes, then why should you support that? It's like worshiping totalitarianism.

We may have total God, or total Emptiness. Why does the latter not merit revolt?

[HillGoose]

why should humans not rebel against God? Is it wrong to rebel against Kim Jong Un? Or Hitler?

I'm not saying God is evil. But if God is really a being with the ability to watch you for your whole life, judge every one of your actions, and then condemn you if they aren't what he likes, then why should you support that? It's like worshiping totalitarianism.

God, Kim Jong Un, Hitler. One of these is not like the others...

Understand what I am saying. All of them operated on the totalitarian basis of obedience, constant surveillance, and cult of personality. Even if God is the nicer one, that doesn't make the system any better.

[afleitch]

why should humans not rebel against God? Is it wrong to rebel against Kim Jong Un? Or Hitler?

I'm not saying God is evil. But if God is really a being with the ability to watch you for your whole life, judge every one of your actions, and then condemn you if they aren't what he likes, then why should you support that? It's like worshiping totalitarianism.

We may have total God, or total Emptiness. Why does the latter not merit revolt?

Because there was nothing before I existed as far as 'I' was concerned. Nothingness, oblivion, whatever you want to call it was far less imposing than life or a god-overseen afterlife.

[Del Tachi]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

Yup.  This.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

why should humans not rebel against God? Is it wrong to rebel against Kim Jong Un? Or Hitler?

I'm not saying God is evil. But if God is really a being with the ability to watch you for your whole life, judge every one of your actions, and then condemn you if they aren't what he likes, then why should you support that? It's like worshiping totalitarianism.

We may have total God, or total Emptiness. Why does the latter not merit revolt?

Because there was nothing before I existed as far as 'I' was concerned. Nothingness, oblivion, whatever you want to call it was far less imposing than life or a god-overseen afterlife.

It seems awfully pessimistic that you find life more imposing than nothingness. I am reminded of something I wrote a few years ago for a spirituality meeting at my UU church:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I do hope that if to any extent your embrace of atheism is because of those who wrongfully believe that God hates you for being yourself, that you'll toss away the fig leaves you've chosen to protect yourself from their words, just as I hope those people throw away the fig leaves of intolerance they've chosen to protect themselves from whatever causes them to doubt God loves them.

[RINO Tom]

I don't know if it's evil, but it's insanely idiotic. this would basically mean that Hitler could have gone to heaven if he had repented and "accepted Christ into his heart", whereas a great man whose only "sin" was not believing in God could be in hell right now.

That is kind of missing the point.  I encourage you to actually read Luther's writings on faith alone.  For one, somebody with actual faith wouldn't act that way, but more importantly, see RFayette's post.

[Blue3]

"if you give up your ability to question things and think critically, and do whatever I say, you'll receive endless happiness someday"

it sounds like Nazi Germany or North Korea.

That is not what "salvation through faith alone" means.

It is NOT about giving up questions or critical analysis or blind obedience.

It allows someone to make a deathbed conversion and be saved. If you believe in loving compassion, which is what believing in God is all about, then good works naturally follow. But sometimes a person doesn't always have time or ability. So while good works will naturally follow when a person has the ability and has the time, everyone still has the opportunity until their last stage of death.

In the traditional sense, it's not just saying some words signaling you believe... it's a genuine disposition, a change of frame-of-mind.