Erica Garner dies at 27

[Alabama_Indy10]

Rest in Power, Ms. Garner.

Her death is also tragically ironic, given that African Americans continue to face shorter life expectancies due to heart diesease.

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They face a much higher allostatic load, due to the constant societal pressure ranging from implicit bias to outright police brutality.

Being black in America literally takes years off your life.

You’re joking right?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Rest in Power, Ms. Garner.

Her death is also tragically ironic, given that African Americans continue to face shorter life expectancies due to heart diesease.

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They face a much higher allostatic load, due to the constant societal pressure ranging from implicit bias to outright police brutality.

Being black in America literally takes years off your life.

Being POOR takes years off your life.  As blacks are more likely to be poor than other ethnic groups, blacks are more likely to suffer illnesses that shorten life.  The factors involved are things like:

***Poor diet (the cheap starches and most fatty proteins are the cheapest)
***Less access to medical care
***The Stress of being poor.
***Greater likelihood of living near environmentally hazardous areas.
***Tendency toward more dangerous work environments (especially "off the books" employment and day labor firms)

But if we're going to talk about the "stress of being black", are we going to talk about the combination of the disproportionate number of young black males committing violent crimes against a somewhat less disproportionate number of black victims?  Are we going to talk about the stress that comes when it's one of your household that's been a victim, or that has committed the crime?  Are we going to talk about the stress that comes from community pressure form a variety of sources (including criminal street gangs) not to report criminal activity to police, even when doing so would, ultimately, increase the level of public safety?  These factors are as much of the "stress of being black" is somehow quoted.

Was Erica Garner's death a product of "institutional racism"?  Would she be dead if her father had not resisted arrest, had complied with police, and had gone through the process of dealing with what was, after all, a minor misdemeanor charge?  Indeed, would she be dead if Eric Garner had resolved, at some time in his past to be a law-abiding citizen?  (And there's no evidence that he had, in fact, made such a decision; he was free on bond the day he resisted arrest and died.)  Was Erica Garner the victim of a heredetary heart condition?  Did her own lifestyle contribute to her death?  After all, her father was a morbidly obese diabetic with asthma and a heart condition; did she kill herself with a knife and fork as her father did?  If Eric Garner was a law-abiding citizen, he'd probably be alive today, but no one says this.  How stressful is it to live a lifestyle by choice that renders one a martyr.?  Is the constant "societal pressure" really nothing more than the stress of the fear that your crimes will be discovered?

I don't wish to pile on the Garner family.  I wish them comfort and the Peace of God at this time.  But I'm not willing to express my condolences by condoning falsehoods.  Erica Garner had a father who never took responsibility for her own actions, and whose legacy was her daughter celebrating his faux victimstance.   She was a misguided soul and an apologist for folks who wish to resist lawful arrest, and I'm not down with that aspect of her life.  I hope her family can celebrate her life and derive comfort, but her life is one that, on a public level, I choose not to celebrate.  I'll reserve that kind of celebration for James Chaney, Medgar Evers, Violet Liuzzo, Rev. James Reeb, etc.  REAL FFs.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Well it's a damn good thing we can always count on an old white guy to 'well actually' police thuggery.

Thanks, Fuzz!

[Fuzzy Bear]

Well it's a damn good thing we can always count on an old white guy to 'well actually' police thuggery.

Thanks, Fuzz!

Erica Garner is a perpetrator of a false narrative; the narrative that the thing blacks have to fear most is the police.  It's just not the case.

There are issues in criminal justice that are the province of serious people (of which Erica Garner was not).  Those issues include:

***Racial disparities in sentencing
***Overall concept of anti-drug laws
***The impact and fairness/unfairness of a PERMANENT criminal record
***Systems of fines and financial penalties for civil infractions that penalize the poor (e. g. Ferguson,m MO)
***Overcriminalization (making civil matters crimes, upgrading misdemeanors to felonies, etc.)
***Minimum Mandatory Sentencings
***The Death Penalty (which, btw, I personally oppose)
***Restoration of voting rights to former offenders
***The ramifications of a growing system of Private Prisons
***An honest discussion of crime statistics, and why they are what they are
***Sentencing Juveniles as Adults (all aspects)

There are more issues I can think of.  There's no shortage of serious topics to talk about by serious people.

BLM are not serious people.  They are people who perpetuate the narrative that the real enemy of black folks is the police, and refuse to discuss the fact that blacks (according to statistics) commit a greater share of violent crimes than any other group per capita, as if that fact has nothing to do with the well-being of black folks (particularly in lower income neighborhoods).  Serious people in this area have open minds, and who wish to see the issue from all sides.  That includes the side of Law Enforcement.  And it ought to include folks who, at a minimum, concede that no person has the right to resist a lawful detention or arrest. 

[kyc0705]

An impassioned advocate who had to deal with tremendous personal difficulties, but still saw ways to use that trauma to fight for others. May she rest in power.

[Virginiá]

I don't wish to pile on the Garner family.  I wish them comfort and the Peace of God at this time.

Then why did you? It seems like you jumped right in with a completely unsolicited and unforced screed about how sh**tty her father was and how all this anti-police activism is tragically misplaced and incorrect (right right, exaggerations or straw men, whatever)

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

BLM are not serious people.  They are people who perpetuate the narrative that the real enemy of black folks is the police, and refuse to discuss the fact that blacks (according to statistics) commit a greater share of violent crimes than any other group per capita, as if that fact has nothing to do with the well-being of black folks (particularly in lower income neighborhoods).  Serious people in this area have open minds, and who wish to see the issue from all sides.  That includes the side of Law Enforcement.

You honestly don't think BLM knows about black crime?  There are more "Stop the Violence" marches and similar movements across neighborhoods and cities in this country than demonstrations against police brutality, plus Scared Straight programs, gang counseling, neighborhood watches, intervention specialists, youth counselors, faith-based initiatives, et cetera.  But those things don't make the evening news because they aren't as disquieting as people blocking traffic and protesting.  They also don't offend white people who watch football.

Another fun fact: the rate of violence is actually higher among poor white urban youth.  Why no talk of white-on-white crime?  Why are the All Lives Matter folks wasting time complaining about protests against state violence instead of cleaning up the mess their own backyard?

Or, of course, addressing poverty, because that is the common denominator for violent crime across racial lines.

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And if they do so without intending to harm others, they still don't forfeit their right to live.  Eric Garner was literally crying out for his life when the thugs chokeholded him, even though he clearly posed no danger to anyone.

Police serve to protect.  We are not their subjects.

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

BLM are not serious people.  They are people who perpetuate the narrative that the real enemy of black folks is the police, and refuse to discuss the fact that blacks (according to statistics) commit a greater share of violent crimes than any other group per capita, as if that fact has nothing to do with the well-being of black folks (particularly in lower income neighborhoods).  Serious people in this area have open minds, and who wish to see the issue from all sides.  That includes the side of Law Enforcement.

You honestly don't think BLM knows that?  There are more "Stop the Violence" marches and similar movements across neighborhoods and cities in this country than demonstrations against police brutality, plus Scared Straight programs, gang counseling, neighborhood watches, intervention specialists, youth counselors, faith-based initiatives, et cetera.  But those things don't make the evening news because they aren't as disquieting as people blocking traffic and protesting.  They also don't offend white people who watch football.

Another fun fact: the rate of violence is actually higher among poor white urban youth.  Why no talk of white-on-white crime?  Why are the All Lives Matter folks wasting time complaining about protests against state violence instead of cleaning up the messes their own backyard?

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And if they do so without intending to harm others, they don't forfeit their right to live.  Eric Garner was literally calling out for his life when the thugs chokeholded him, even though he clearly posed no danger to anyone.

Police serve to protect.  We are not their subjects.

Well said.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Typical two-faced white evangelical commentary. "Bless their hearts, I hope God grants their family peace - also they were criminal thugs and apologists for thugs."

No wonder white evangelical cruelty with a Jesus-Loves-You smile remains so predominant -  no,inseparable from the culture of the American South, and why white evangelicals nowadays overwhelmingly vote for the party that black Americans (you know, the descendants of the people whom white Southerners literally owned as property ie. not having any rights as human beings) have long since overwhelmingly rejected. Malice toward the Other is far more effective when its veiled with manners and "hospitality."

[Holy Unifying Centrist]

Based on Fuzzy Bear's last post, it seems like he basically agrees with the BLM movement.

[DrScholl]

I'm sorry she's dead at such a young age, and I pray that the family finds some peace.

In her life, Erica Garner was, IMO, rather misguided, and some of that misguiding lies at the feet of her father, who had an extensive criminal record, and was resisting a lawful arrest at the time he was placed in a controversial chokehold by NYPD.  (The chokehold is not "illegal", but it is prohibited by NYPD policy; that distinction is a fact that cries out for attention.)  A grand jury consisting of 3 whites and 9 minority members declined to indict the officers involved in the incident that hastened Mr. Garner's demise.  

Mr. Garner was placed in a chokehold because he chose to resist a lawful arrest.  This fact cries out for recognition as well.  The advocacy of Erica Garner is an advocacy for the right of folks to resist arrest without consequence, simply because THEY (the persons being arrested) assert that it is unjust.  I would honestly ask folks here sympathetic to Ms. Garner's complaints and advocacy what the ramifications are for public safety if folks being placed under arrest have the right to physically resist without police redoubling their efforts to subdue the suspect.  

What the appropriate enforcement for selling "loosies" (not the only offense Mr. Garner was ever charged with; he had 30 prior arrests) is a legitimate issue, the right to resist a lawful arrest is not.  While criminal defendants have the right presumption of innocence in Court, Mr. Garner has a history of convictions.  People make mistakes, but one of the mistakes Mr. Garner (IMO) repeatedly made is the refusal to take personal responsibility for obeying the laws of his state and city.  

Ms. Garner, in her lifetime, was blind to that side of the coin.  Her advocacy was one-sided, and reflected no concern for folks who did obey the law and do deserve protection from those who would break it.  Yes, Ms. Garner, and BLM, raise legitimate issues for discussion by reasonable people.  But Ms. Garner, in her lifetime, was not one of those reasonable people whose thoughts and actions could have led to a solution of even the legitimate issues she raised (let alone the apologia for folks who want the right to resist arrest).

Her death is a personal tragedy for her family.  I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for bringing the sermon down from the mountaintop. Now shove it.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't wish to pile on the Garner family.  I wish them comfort and the Peace of God at this time.

Then why did you? It seems like you jumped right in with a completely unsolicited and unforced screed about how sh**tty her father was and how all this anti-police activism is tragically misplaced and incorrect (right right, exaggerations or straw men, whatever)

Because the only reason for such a thread as this on a forum such as Atlas is to memorialize her cause and the arguments behind them.

Maybe "ironic" was not the right word. I wanted to point out how a woman who spent much of her life fighting institutional racism was slain by the effects of that same institutional racism.

There is a reference by RFK1968 describing the police involved as "her fathers murderers", despite the fact that a grand jury of 3 whites and 9 minorities refused to indict any of the police involved of any crimes. 

The comments made regarding Ms. Garner are comments where folks are lionizing her cause and reiterating her points of view, while, in a sense, hiding behind the fact of her recent death, presenting her as a casualty of a movement.  That's fine, but this is a political forum, and not a guestbook.  This is a place for ideas, and the exchange of ideas, and I'm not going to let Ms. Garner's false ideas and false narrative go unchallenged when other folks pick them up and advance them here.

I assure you that if Donald Trump passes away while Atlas is still in existence, there will be an online urination-on-his-grave thread that will be big enough to crash the site.  There will be snide comments about Melania, Tiffany and Barron as well as Ivanka, Jared, Eric, and Don, Jr.  There will be references to Trump suffering in Hell right next to Hitler and such.  And neither you, nor anyone else here, save for Trump advocates who wish to have it both ways, will rebuke those who will trash Trump on that day. 

Personally, I won't have a problem with this; short of slander and libel, the 1st Amendment allows folks to go over the top.  Trump, in his lifetime, will have brought such responses on himself, to a point.  I'm not a "have it both ways" guy.  But I wonder, Virginia, if you're someone who wants it both ways?  Will you, as a moderator, provide the electronic "tut-tutting" for the grave urinators on that day?  (That'll be your big chance as a moderator, I suppose, lol.)

Erica Garner chose to become a public figure.  The causes of public figures are celebrated, one way or another, when they pass away.  It's sad when a 27 year old dies; that's always too young.  But her death didn't make her ideas on resisting arrest, or her narrative on how the main thing black folks have to fear is the Police any more true or valid.  Her IDEAS, on balance, were false and counterproductive IMO, and as a public figure, her ideas don't stop being scrutinized because of her sudden death when folks bring them up and present them online as the Gospel Truth.

[Famous Mortimer]

I legitimately do not know if it was right or not for the police to approach Eric Garner, once they did though, he started yelling about all the previous times he had been arrested. At that point, the cops had no choice but to restrain him. Why on earth would anyone think that throwing a tantrum and yelling about your priors would cause police to disengage? This seems like common sense on its own but it should be especially obvious if you actually have had contact with the police before. Sam Harris was suggested that in order to prevent potential police incidents, high school education should include training on how to interact with the police/how to act if you're being arrested. I think that's a very good idea.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Typical two-faced white evangelical commentary. "Bless their hearts, I hope God grants their family peace - also they were criminal thugs and apologists for thugs."

No wonder white evangelical cruelty with a Jesus-Loves-You smile remains so predominant -  no,inseparable from the culture of the American South, and why white evangelicals nowadays overwhelmingly vote for the party that black Americans (you know, the descendants of the people whom white Southerners literally owned as property ie. not having any rights as human beings) have long since overwhelmingly rejected. Malice toward the Other is far more effective when its veiled with manners and "hospitality."

I'm a native New Yorker.  We can start from there.

I'm not an apologist for the Confederacy, and if you weren't so blinded by your hatred of my religious faith, perhaps you would know that by know.

[CookieDamage]

Rest in Power, Ms. Garner.

Her death is also tragically ironic, given that African Americans continue to face shorter life expectancies due to heart diesease.

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how is that ironic?

Maybe "ironic" was not the right word. I wanted to point out how a woman who spent much of her life fighting institutional racism was slain by the effects of that same institutional racism.

[Devout Centrist]

I see our sh*thead population is making a comeback.

[publicunofficial]

Based on Fuzzy Bear's last post, it seems like he basically agrees with the BLM movement.

It's an incredibly weird position to say "Every part of the current justice system is broken and somewhat unfair to black people, except for the police officers who carry out that system, they are blameless"

[Doimper]

Based on Fuzzy Bear's last post, it seems like he basically agrees with the BLM movement.

It's an incredibly weird position to say "Every part of the current justice system is broken and somewhat unfair to black people, except for the police officers who carry out that system, they are blameless"

[Virginiá]

Because the only reason for such a thread as this on a forum such as Atlas is to memorialize her cause and the arguments behind them.

I'm not sure what the purpose is, but if you're going to take a big fat dump on her father and the whole situation in general, at least don't try and say that's not what you're trying to do after you just pounded out paragraph after paragraph of such material.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Because the only reason for such a thread as this on a forum such as Atlas is to memorialize her cause and the arguments behind them.

I'm not sure what the purpose is, but if you're going to take a big fat dump on her father and the whole situation in general, at least don't try and say that's not what you're trying to do after you just pounded out paragraph after paragraph of such material.

Are my arguments wrong?  Are they incorrect?

If Steve Bannon drinks himself to death in the near future, will you, and other like-minded souls, not respond when someone makes a comment of how his death made him a victim of the liberal media and their relentless biases?  Or will you question and confront such a narrative?  

In life, Eric Garner was an unrepentant petty criminal who took a minimum of responsibility for his life choices.  In life, Erica Garner deceived herself, however understandable the situation was, as to her father's situation.  I wish comfort for the family.  But her arguments are just wrong, and this is a discussion forum.  Perhaps refusing to discuss the concept of folks not having the right to resist a lawful arrest will bring about greater harmony in our nation.  Silly me.

[junior chįmp]

Because the only reason for such a thread as this on a forum such as Atlas is to memorialize her cause and the arguments behind them.

I'm not sure what the purpose is, but if you're going to take a big fat dump on her father and the whole situation in general, at least don't try and say that's not what you're trying to do after you just pounded out paragraph after paragraph of such material.

Are my arguments wrong?  Are they incorrect?

If Steve Bannon drinks himself to death in the near future, will you, and other like-minded souls, not respond when someone makes a comment of how his death made him a victim of the liberal media and their relentless biases?  Or will you question and confront such a narrative? 

In life, Eric Garner was an unrepentant petty criminal who took a minimum of responsibility for his life choices.  In life, Erica Garner deceived herself, however understandable the situation was, as to her father's situation.  I wish comfort for the family.  But her arguments are just wrong, and this is a discussion forum.  Perhaps refusing to discuss the concept of folks not having the right to resist a lawful arrest will bring about greater harmony in our nation.  Silly me.

Donald Trump is a long time criminal who's literally committed thousands of crimes in his lifetimes including the stuffing of thousands of contractors which bankrupted family businesses. But you see, that will never bother middle white America as much as a black guy doing petty criminal stuff. As George Carlin said:

"Republicans want to put street criminals in jail to make life safer for the business criminals. They’re against street crime, provided that street isn’t Wall Street."

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Far, far too young. RIP.

The Facebook comments I've seen about the story all make me either want to kill myself or throw a Trump supporter from the Empire State Building. Make of that what you will, mods, but I'm disgusted to my core.

Rest in peace.

This post is very close to the line, but I am letting it go for the moment. I don't think you mean this literally as opposed to just venting anger. Torie.

Are you f**king serious Tory!?!

Fuzzy, are you really so soulless that the one thing you give a damn about in a thread about a persons death is attacking the deceased and insisting their father was evil?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Based on Fuzzy Bear's last post, it seems like he basically agrees with the BLM movement.

It's an incredibly weird position to say "Every part of the current justice system is broken and somewhat unfair to black people, except for the police officers who carry out that system, they are blameless"

I have never said police are blameless.  Police, however, do not have the choice in what laws they will and will not enforce.  They have some discretion in how they enforce some criminal laws.  For some misdemeanor offenses, police can issue a Notice to Appear instead of arresting the suspect, booking them into jail, and go through posting bond, etc.

And police work in environments where black folks commit crimes out of proportion to their percentage of the population more than any other demographic group.  This does not justify police brutality, but it's a fact of the existence of police officers in many locales.  It's a sad fact, and an uncomfortable thing to discuss, but it's a fact.  To not discuss this fact is to say that race matters when police commit wrongdoing, but not when offenders do. 

As to the poster who quoted George Carlin's old line about police officers caring only about street crime unless it's Wall Street:  Street crime is the crime that is far more likely to affect the average person, and more likely to TRAUMATICALLY impact them.  Robberies.  Home Invasions.  Home Burglaries, sometimes while the homeowner is present.  Purse snatchings.  Auto burglaries.  Drug activity.  These are the crimes that affect folks most immediately, the crimes that are more likely to traumatize the victim, the crimes that give people reason to believe that they are vulnerable, and that their environment is not a safe one.  And it's street criminals that do that.  Yes, I recognize that politicians stir up fear for self-serving motives (especially the ones that take big bucks from private prisons) but folks have a right to be safe and feel safe in their persons. 

[Devout Centrist]

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The framing here is crucial: It gives police a great deal of leeway when it comes to working with black communties, while ostensibly condemning police brutality. In short, it’s excusing brutality.

[Fuzzy Bear]

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The framing here is crucial: It gives police a great deal of leeway when it comes to working with black communties, while ostensibly condemning police brutality. In short, it’s excusing brutality.

I can agree with this to a point.  Framing of the issue is important.  But to say this excuses brutality is just not true.

Police have the right (indeed, they have the DUTY) to lawfully detain persons when investigating crime.  Detaining a person is a limited perogative; there is a point where a detention goes on so long that it becomes a de facto arrest, and that's a place where civil and Constitutional rights issues begin.  For example, a police officer conducting a traffic stop for a tail light being out cannot detain a person long enough to get a search warrant if the person denies permission to search their car and there is nothing in plain view to warrant a search.  But you and I can't just walk away from a traffic citation (which is a detention).  You and I just can't walk away from being detained when it is clear that we are witnesses to a crime, or mere suspects where probable cause has not been established.

And folks don't have the right to resist a lawful arrest.  They have the right to not be subjected to improper force, but they don't have the right to flee or physically resist; they have a LEGAL DUTY TO COMPLY.  This is pretty basic, but this is, seemingly, a core principle of Erica Garner and BLM; that it's OK to resist arrest.  That's what Eric Garner did, by any definition.  Think, for a moment, of the ramifications of folks actually being legally able to resist arrest, and to flee and elude arrest. 

What is intellectually dishonest in the media, and at Atlas, is the discussion of racial bias by police without the accompanying discussion of the tragically disproportionate number of crimes committed by black defendants, as opposed to other demographic groups (a disproportionality that goes off the charts when the demographic is young black males).  Why is this so?  Why are crime statistics what they are, racially speaking?  How can you discuss implicit bias of police against one demographic and not discuss, openly, the crime rates of that one demographic vs. the general population?  There are reasons for why the statistics are what they are, and questioning the accuracy or methodology of how stats are compiled is a valid issue, but is this discrepancy ALL book-cooking?  An honest discussion of the entire issue might actually lead to a resolution of the problems here.