The Weak Case For Public Schooling
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Bono
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« on: August 29, 2005, 09:10:51 AM »

www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Public%20Schools/Public_Schools1.html
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MaC
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2005, 10:21:18 PM »

don't worry, some day we'll cast off the chains of government in brainwashing our kids. 
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Citizen James
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2005, 10:47:04 PM »

I find myself wondering how many people who cite Adam Smith have actually read (and digested) any of his works.  Looking through the source material, in particular article two of chapter one of book five, I have to wonder if your author merely skimmed rather than read Smith, or is simply cherry picking to support his position.

Looking over the chapter, I suspect he would have liked NCLB, or some similar program to make sure teachers work hard by rewarding them for producing results, but he considered education to be as vital to a society - just as providing for the common defense is, and aught best be placed on all aspects of society.

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It is also worth noting that being a groundbreaker does not make one infallable - some theories may eventually be fine tuned, adjusted, or thrown out altogether.

Consider Newton.   Had some solid theories.   Einstien came along and adjusted them.  Plank showed some of Einstien's conjectures to be completly wrong (such as those regarding quantum mechanics)

Consider Freud.  Most of his theories have been tossed aside by modern psychology.  Still, his treating insanity as an illness and approaching it from a scientific standpoint, rather than treating it as demonic posession or witchcraft, was a major step forward.

I think NCLB is flawed in it's requirements for frequent testing, and wonder if it's excessive demands for teacher accountability might not be akin to the excessive regulation which undermines industry.  There is perhaps a ballance to be struck on this matter, as there should at least be some reward for successful educational work, though finding an accurate and fair yardstick is a difficult task.

As education is an endevor that profits society as a whole, rather than individual groups, and is focused on long term gains rather than the short term profitability which is all to often the focus of so many megacorporations today.  (some of whoms anti-competitive practices must have Smith spinning in his grave).  The author of this piece seems almost to subscribe to the mercantilist ideology which Smith put to rest centuries ago.

Smith was of the era of the enlightenment, and a  believer in the  noble nature of man, and in the power of reason and observation.    He was very much a classic style liberal.   Though he refers to the 'invisible hand' of comerice - I doubt he would have though much of those who seem to view free markets as a form of magic.  Quite the contrary, he gave numerous examples of how the seperation and specialization of labor, and the motivation of competition help to provide an overall more prosperous society.

I have yet to see the advocates of fully privatized education explain how their scheme would improve the overall quality of mass education beyond the mantra that competition always magically makes things better.  This is a romantic (anti-enlightenment) way of viewing things.  Competition increases motivation, so if motivation is a problem competition helps to remedy it.  If not, competition isn't always as helpful.

In addition, some of the economic structure has changed.  Many companies see consumers and market share as a static value to be divvied up, almost a mercantilistic world view, and often pour much of their resources into advertising rather than improving the quality of the product.   Society benefits most from a socially mobile populus, denying a child the tools to move up just because their parents are poor and unwilling or unable  to make massive sacrifices for their benefit is a loss for us all.  The idea that the sins or misfortunes of the parents should be pushed upon the children is a highly statist, and ultimately monarchist, sort of a postition.   This person may fancy themselves a libertarian, but they don't seem to have the perspective that underlies classic social libertarianism/liberalism.
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Citizen James
James42
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2005, 10:49:39 PM »

BTW, The theory of moral sentements is also an interesting (and somewhat shorter) read, and gives some further insite to his ideological worldview.
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Bono
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2005, 03:51:45 AM »

I find myself wondering how many people who cite Adam Smith have actually read (and digested) any of his works.  Looking through the source material, in particular article two of chapter one of book five, I have to wonder if your author merely skimmed rather than read Smith, or is simply cherry picking to support his position.

Looking over the chapter, I suspect he would have liked NCLB, or some similar program to make sure teachers work hard by rewarding them for producing results, but he considered education to be as vital to a society - just as providing for the common defense is, and aught best be placed on all aspects of society.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is also worth noting that being a groundbreaker does not make one infallable - some theories may eventually be fine tuned, adjusted, or thrown out altogether.

Consider Newton.   Had some solid theories.   Einstien came along and adjusted them.  Plank showed some of Einstien's conjectures to be completly wrong (such as those regarding quantum mechanics)

Consider Freud.  Most of his theories have been tossed aside by modern psychology.  Still, his treating insanity as an illness and approaching it from a scientific standpoint, rather than treating it as demonic posession or witchcraft, was a major step forward.

I think NCLB is flawed in it's requirements for frequent testing, and wonder if it's excessive demands for teacher accountability might not be akin to the excessive regulation which undermines industry.  There is perhaps a ballance to be struck on this matter, as there should at least be some reward for successful educational work, though finding an accurate and fair yardstick is a difficult task.

As education is an endevor that profits society as a whole, rather than individual groups, and is focused on long term gains rather than the short term profitability which is all to often the focus of so many megacorporations today.  (some of whoms anti-competitive practices must have Smith spinning in his grave).  The author of this piece seems almost to subscribe to the mercantilist ideology which Smith put to rest centuries ago.

Smith was of the era of the enlightenment, and a  believer in the  noble nature of man, and in the power of reason and observation.    He was very much a classic style liberal.   Though he refers to the 'invisible hand' of comerice - I doubt he would have though much of those who seem to view free markets as a form of magic.  Quite the contrary, he gave numerous examples of how the seperation and specialization of labor, and the motivation of competition help to provide an overall more prosperous society.

I have yet to see the advocates of fully privatized education explain how their scheme would improve the overall quality of mass education beyond the mantra that competition always magically makes things better.  This is a romantic (anti-enlightenment) way of viewing things.  Competition increases motivation, so if motivation is a problem competition helps to remedy it.  If not, competition isn't always as helpful.

In addition, some of the economic structure has changed.  Many companies see consumers and market share as a static value to be divvied up, almost a mercantilistic world view, and often pour much of their resources into advertising rather than improving the quality of the product.   Society benefits most from a socially mobile populus, denying a child the tools to move up just because their parents are poor and unwilling or unable  to make massive sacrifices for their benefit is a loss for us all.  The idea that the sins or misfortunes of the parents should be pushed upon the children is a highly statist, and ultimately monarchist, sort of a postition.   This person may fancy themselves a libertarian, but they don't seem to have the perspective that underlies classic social libertarianism/liberalism.


First, while this Friedman starts by mentioning Adam Smith, he by  no means subscrives to all his economic theories. I'm not sure what school he belongs, but he probably is a monetarist like his father. Now I'm not a monetarist, I'm an austrian, but there are many common points between the two schools. I won't get into that though. I'm just starting this becuase you seem too hung up with Adam Smith rather than the actual substance of the article.
Because all of your objections are mentioned in the essay.
You say that education is beneficial to sociaety as a hole. Besides pointing out that most benefits go to the person being educated, that is also true of many otehr things. THe auther gives the example of cars increasing productivity, thus being better for society, but that is not a reason to subsidise them.
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Giant Saguaro
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2005, 07:36:40 PM »

Nah, I value a strong public education; education and defense/military are two things I see worth spending money on and are two things I see as worth supplying to our children: safety and education. I like what this guy calls a "private provider" of education - like there would be no indoctrination with a "private provider"? I don't think so. To some degree, indoctrination is just a part of education. Now he can come out and say that it's the wrong kind of indoctrination in the public schools, which he doesn't do that well, but if he implies that we can do away with that element, I'm going to come back and say he's going to do the same thing he's criticizing the public schools and the government for, it will just be a different kind.

Public education is far from perfect, but it's certainly doing its job. Whereas being literate was once defined as 4th grade it's now basically college level. The percentage of high school graduates and kids going to college has increased by vast numbers. Mike Rose has at least one good book on these topics. He's good to get a more balanced view.
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A18
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 07:44:01 PM »

David Friedman is an anarcho-capitalist.
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Bono
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2005, 03:39:52 AM »

David Friedman is an anarcho-capitalist.

And?
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