Indictment-O-Rama Megathread: Mueller indicts 13 Russians

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A few minutes ago, Trump tweeted:

"russia started their anti-us campaign in 2014, long before I announced I would run for president. the results of the election were not impacted. The trump campaign did nothing wrong- no collusion!"

Since their goal was President Donald Trump, I am glad he has acknowledged that his election was an affront to American values.

No, their goal was not to elect Trump, it was to create chaos and sew doubt about the functioning of our democracy.  Supporting Trump during the election was merely the best way for them to do that.  I feel sort of sorry for Trump, but only in the tiny violin sense of being sorry.  Not only does Trump have to know now deep in his bowels that there's a good chance that the Russians made it possible for him to win, but he also has to know that he was only a tool as far the Russians were concerned and never a goal.

Even worse than that for his ego is that to keep out of jail, he'll need to convince everyone that the Russians thought of him as nothing more than an useful idiot who just happened to fit their needs as a chaos creator.

[Frodo]

Mueller just ensured his job security.  From now on, in light of all the evidence of Russian meddling, any attempt to remove him will be regarded as a treasonous act.  

Also, it could light the fire under the Republicans' ass to get going on combating their next attempt to meddle in our elections, beginning this November.

Hey, one can dream.....

[King Lear]

The key word in Muellers indictment was "Unwitting", meaning that any Trump campaign official that may have helped the "Russians" did so unintentionally, and are thus immune from prosecution. This means that this news isn't as beneficial to Democratic election prospects as they might think.

[HAnnA MArin County]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

[King Lear]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

This is all total bulls**t, Sanders was not helped by any "Russian spy's", and anyone who is accusing him of that is a Moderate POS, who's trying to keep Democrats focused on #metoo, Transvestites, and the "Mueller probe", instead of reducing Income Inequality and stopping these stupid Wars. And by the way I voted for Hillary Clinton and really wish that she won, however I would have much rather seen Sanders as the Democratic Nominee, because he would have actually won, and it really pisses me off to see people trying to tarnish Sanders with the "Russian mole" label so he can't run in 2020 (he's the only Democrat that can beat Trump).

[Gass3268]

The key word in Muellers indictment was "Unwitting", meaning that any Trump campaign official that may have helped the "Russians" did so unintentionally, and are thus immune from prosecution. This means that this news isn't as beneficial to Democratic election prospects as they might think.

Wrong:

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Also:

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[Landslide Lyndon]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

Sanders praised repeatedly the old Soviet Union and even went there for his honeymoon.
I would be surprised if the KGB DIDN'T have a detailed folder on him as a potential ally.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Sanders was probably viewed more as an opportunity to undermine Hillary in the primaries, while Trump was an intended winner of the general. Unless there are evidences to prove any collusion between Russians and the Sanders campaign, it would be dishonest to put it on the same level as the Trump campaign.

[Silent Hunter]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

Sanders praised repeatedly the old Soviet Union and even went there for his honeymoon.
I would be surprised if the KGB DIDN'T have a detailed folder on him as a potential ally.

Got a source for that, by any chance?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

Sanders praised repeatedly the old Soviet Union and even went there for his honeymoon.
I would be surprised if the KGB DIDN'T have a detailed folder on him as a potential ally.

Got a source for that, by any chance?

No one but hacks like Landslide Lyndon care that Bernie went to the USSR 19 years after Bill Clinton when Yaroslavl, Russia was added as one of Burlington's sister cities.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

Sanders praised repeatedly the old Soviet Union and even went there for his honeymoon.
I would be surprised if the KGB DIDN'T have a detailed folder on him as a potential ally.

Got a source for that, by any chance?

No one but hacks like Landslide Lyndon care that Bernie went to the USSR 19 years after Bill Clinton.

Jfern is to Sanders what Hannity is to Trump.

[GeorgiaModerate]

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[TheRocketRaccoon]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

Sanders praised repeatedly the old Soviet Union and even went there for his honeymoon.
I would be surprised if the KGB DIDN'T have a detailed folder on him as a potential ally.

Got a source for that, by any chance?

No one but hacks like Landslide Lyndon care that Bernie went to the USSR 19 years after Bill Clinton when Yaroslavl, Russia was added as one of Burlington's sister cities.

This is w e a k and you know it.

[Koharu]

Lawfare once again has an excellent summary of yesterday's info-drop:

Russian Influence Campaign: What’s in the Latest Mueller Indictment

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[KingSweden]

Sanders was probably viewed more as an opportunity to undermine Hillary in the primaries, while Trump was an intended winner of the general. Unless there are evidences to prove any collusion between Russians and the Sanders campaign, it would be dishonest to put it on the same level as the Trump campaign.

I agree. Some fringe left figures may have been in the loop but I’m highly skeptical Bernie or anyone in his campaign had any involvement with actual Russian trolls.

That said, the decision to go scorched Earth after March, even when it was clear he couldn’t win, may have been caused by being *egged on* by Russian trolls. That still doesn’t mean anyone in the Sanders camp was actively coordinating with Russia.

[IndustrialJustice]

We seem to be readily accepting the concept that a $1 million sh!tposting budget of 13 Russians toppled a $2 billion campaign behemoth. Or at least comfortable with the idea of that, which seems laughable even in the most generous context.

The only people dumb enough to buy Infowars-esque garbage are the people who were voting for Trump the day he announced his candidacy. Don't any of you have a racist Aunt on Facebook?

[pbrower2a]

A few minutes ago, Trump tweeted:

"russia started their anti-us campaign in 2014, long before I announced I would run for president. the results of the election were not impacted. The trump campaign did nothing wrong- no collusion!"

Since their goal was President Donald Trump, I am glad he has acknowledged that his election was an affront to American values.

No, their goal was not to elect Trump, it was to create chaos and sew doubt about the functioning of our democracy.  Supporting Trump during the election was merely the best way for them to do that.  I feel sort of sorry for Trump, but only in the tiny violin sense of being sorry.  Not only does Trump have to know now deep in his bowels that there's a good chance that the Russians made it possible for him to win, but he also has to know that he was only a tool as far the Russians were concerned and never a goal.

Even worse than that for his ego is that to keep out of jail, he'll need to convince everyone that the Russians thought of him as nothing more than an useful idiot who just happened to fit their needs as a chaos creator.

Useful idiots and fellow travelers. They can do great harm without malign intent or personal corruption.

These are the sorts of people who believed that Josef Stalin was a man of peace, that he believed in liberal democracy complete with free enterprise, outside the Soviet Union, and that national fronts in which the Communist Party was a participant were not under the control of the Commies. Putin may not be a Commie, but he certainly knows the old Commie playbook for subverting weakened democracies. During the Cold War, the Commies could not appeal to the greed of capitalists, so offering business deals to people who might be useful in politics was out of the question. Sure, the KGB could lavish money on those who would sell out classified information, but that was simply quid pro quo, no different from buying or machine tools or grain.  Now that Russia is an oligarchy in which a few people get fantastically rich, Putin has a model to appeal to people who want to get fantastically rich without having to follow the normal decencies of business enterprise. So Putin deals with people who would sell out their country for huge personal profits in capitalist form. In an America run on a Putin-style model, only those connected to the political elite get to thrive as capitalists or wield bureaucratic or institutional power.

People like the Koch and Mercer family knew well that they would be among the first to be killed in the event of a Communist takeover, but in a Putin-style regime, they get monopoly profits, lax regulation, ruin of competition, and cheap labor. Anyone opposed? Economic and personal ruin.

Donald Trump is political chaos.    

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

We seem to be readily accepting the concept that a $1 million sh!tposting budget of 13 Russians toppled a $2 billion campaign behemoth. Or at least comfortable with the idea of that, which seems laughable even in the most generous context.

You seem to be readily accepting the idea that because an investigation is confident it can prove before a court (and without revealing any classified information) that a million dollars was spent trying to influence the election, that there were no other efforts to do so.

You are also attempting to ignore the fact that felonies are still felonies, no matter their relative size to those they effect. (And I'm sure you're really trying to ignore the fact that anyone conspiring with said Russians to commit those felonies is also a criminal.

And finally, on the pure electioneering level, you're ignoring how close the margin was in decisive states, and how few votes (and which votes) were decisive.

Perhaps you should go apply for a job at FOX News? You seem to be right at the level they look for.

[Sestak]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

This is all total bulls**t, Sanders was not helped by any "Russian spy's", and anyone who is accusing him of that is a Moderate POS, who's trying to keep Democrats focused on #metoo, Transvestites, and the "Mueller probe", instead of reducing Income Inequality and stopping these stupid Wars. And by the way I voted for Hillary Clinton and really wish that she won, however I would have much rather seen Sanders as the Democratic Nominee, because he would have actually won, and it really pisses me off to see people trying to tarnish Sanders with the "Russian mole" label so he can't run in 2020 (he's the only Democrat that can beat Trump).

Wow, you're not even hiding it anymore.

[KingSweden]

I guess after today's revelations we should also see under new light Sanders's refusal to vote for Russia sanctions.

That's one of the most underreported stories coming out of today's bombshell. Man, if Putin has stuff on Bernie Sanders too... Anybody seen or heard from jfern today?

This is all total bulls**t, Sanders was not helped by any "Russian spy's", and anyone who is accusing him of that is a Moderate POS, who's trying to keep Democrats focused on #metoo, Transvestites, and the "Mueller probe", instead of reducing Income Inequality and stopping these stupid Wars. And by the way I voted for Hillary Clinton and really wish that she won, however I would have much rather seen Sanders as the Democratic Nominee, because he would have actually won, and it really pisses me off to see people trying to tarnish Sanders with the "Russian mole" label so he can't run in 2020 (he's the only Democrat that can beat Trump).

Wow, you're not even hiding it anymore.

[IndustrialJustice]

We seem to be readily accepting the concept that a $1 million sh!tposting budget of 13 Russians toppled a $2 billion campaign behemoth. Or at least comfortable with the idea of that, which seems laughable even in the most generous context.

You seem to be readily accepting the idea that because an investigation is confident it can prove before a court (and without revealing any classified information) that a million dollars was spent trying to influence the election, that there were no other efforts to do so.

You are also attempting to ignore the fact that felonies are still felonies, no matter their relative size to those they effect. (And I'm sure you're really trying to ignore the fact that anyone conspiring with said Russians to commit those felonies is also a criminal.

And finally, on the pure electioneering level, you're ignoring how close the margin was in decisive states, and how few votes (and which votes) were decisive.

Perhaps you should go apply for a job at FOX News? You seem to be right at the level they look for.

I'm not "ignoring" anything you're accusing me of. Putin, Trump, and their gangsters should be thrown away in the Hague for a lot of reasons. What I'm questioning is the actual influence exerted by these cronies in an election that saw both American parties spend billions of dollars in sophisticated targeted advertising.

Yes, I'm aware that Hillary Clinton's historically abysmal candidacy and campaign left her vulnerable to the whims of a couple-hundred-thousand Midwesterners against the most abhorred major party nominee in modern American history. But I think it's right to question whether a comparably infinitesimal number of Russian sh!tposts actually convinced a critical mass of these people to either vote for Donald Trump, Jill Stein, write in Bernie Sanders, or stay home. I find that incredibly dubious for a multitude of reasons, including the fact that (1) the American far-right media movement already spent far more resources on that mission than what is in question here, (2) the people who are actually convinced by this strand of Fake News were almost certainly never sympathetic to Clinton or her campaign in the first place, and (3) no one has demonstrated anything to suggest that even a smidgen of this effort was successful with anybody. It's been amusing seeing Resistance types gesture wildly over the last year to Russian propaganda videos that logged less than 50 total views.

The far more uncomfortable conversation to have is that Clinton's support cratered among minority turnout in Obama's urban strongholds, which in itself undeniably provided the margin of defeat in question. Instead, we've got a "smoking gun" of a cluster of Russians that equate to a small slice of Breitbart's masthead and probably a fraction of its traffic.

Please, though, maintain your level of hysteria.

[Frodo]

Lawfare once again has an excellent summary of yesterday's info-drop:

Russian Influence Campaign: What’s in the Latest Mueller Indictment

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Grumps (and other Trump supporters) would do well to read this.  

[TheRocketRaccoon]

The far more uncomfortable conversation to have is that Clinton's support cratered among minority turnout in Obama's urban strongholds, which in itself undeniably provided the margin of defeat in question. Instead, we've got a "smoking gun" of a cluster of Russians that equate to a small slice of Breitbart's masthead and probably a fraction of its traffic.

Please, though, maintain your level of hysteria.

Are you going to talk about the VRA being gutted and voter rolls being purged or nah? Oh but I guess minority voters were just dying for socialism instead.

Btw, you are still ignoring all the other forms of interference that went on, including - hey! - those dreaded DNC email leaks, and a media machine that is happy to mainstream all sorts of narratives, so yes, you're ignoring a ton of sh**t.

[IndustrialJustice]

The far more uncomfortable conversation to have is that Clinton's support cratered among minority turnout in Obama's urban strongholds, which in itself undeniably provided the margin of defeat in question. Instead, we've got a "smoking gun" of a cluster of Russians that equate to a small slice of Breitbart's masthead and probably a fraction of its traffic.

Please, though, maintain your level of hysteria.

Are you going to talk about the VRA being gutted and voter rolls being purged or nah? Oh but I guess minority voters were just dying for socialism instead.

Btw, you are still ignoring all the other forms of interference that went on, including - hey! - those dreaded DNC email leaks, and a media machine that is happy to mainstream all sorts of narratives, so yes, you're ignoring a ton of sh**t.

Uh, yes, I want to talk about those things, and certainly more so than a dozen Russian trolls. Unfortunately, though, liberal and centrist media dedicate comparably little time to voter suppression as an issue eroding whatever semblance of representative democracy America has built over the last century.

[TheRocketRaccoon]

The far more uncomfortable conversation to have is that Clinton's support cratered among minority turnout in Obama's urban strongholds, which in itself undeniably provided the margin of defeat in question. Instead, we've got a "smoking gun" of a cluster of Russians that equate to a small slice of Breitbart's masthead and probably a fraction of its traffic.

Please, though, maintain your level of hysteria.

Are you going to talk about the VRA being gutted and voter rolls being purged or nah? Oh but I guess minority voters were just dying for socialism instead.

Btw, you are still ignoring all the other forms of interference that went on, including - hey! - those dreaded DNC email leaks, and a media machine that is happy to mainstream all sorts of narratives, so yes, you're ignoring a ton of sh**t.

Uh, yes, I want to talk about those things, and certainly more so than a dozen Russian trolls. Unfortunately, though, liberal and centrist media dedicate comparably little time to voter suppression as an issue eroding whatever semblance of representative democracy America has built over the last century.

Right. But it's DUMBOCRATS fault the VRA was torn down, not, uh, a majority GOP Supreme Court and a GOP Congresa?

Nothing on the 2nd point? I figured as much.